it might be worth bearing in mind these 'upgrades' may not all be live yet...

this is not persians this is a tragedy but u can allways win if u put a mil drachmas into game!!!! xd

if they just reduced the over all payout for doing persian positions, this can only mean Xerxes has stolen the oracle

Plarium you are killing the game; invested over 5m in units doing Persian positions and got back 1.5m about 30%. This is not fun anymore, not even with discount to purchase units. Not interested any more.

When it come to Guarantee Certifications method, you actually will lose most  of all

Each position you take down will guarantee a 30% payment of the reward so that mean burning out 70% of the unit will never be refund like the old time.

The Event has change to using low class unit of 100% point to exchange a 30% higher unit instead the 70% of the loses will never be return at all.

This will ensure fast dropping in unit number, so if youre having problem with this method it wise that you dont spend anymore unit to do this kind of hard work less earn event.

instead if thing go bad........just pack up and travel.

I agree with PrimeGuardian; stop playing Persian Positions and likely the game.

With the change taking action as of today, let's take a look at the differences between the two systems. Keep in mind that this is solely my own experience.

Under the old system, you would usually have to put in 110% of what you last earned in order to get a payout. Let's say you earn 400 mounted peltasts (3 million resources). To get the next payout, you would have to lose 440 mounted peltasts (3.3 million resources) and complete a position close in level to the payout. Then you would have to pay 3.6 million, then 3.9 million, so on and so on.

With the new system, you immediately earn a percentage of the units you lose. Let's say you earn 400 mounted peltasts, and threw them all back into positions to get 100-200. Then you throw those back into positions and only get 50-100. What gives?

The persian positions still operate under the bank/payout method of the old system, but you're constantly making small withdrawals. You have to subtract the value of the units you gain from the units you lose to calculate the actual deposit. Losing 400 mounted peltasts and gaining 200 back means the deposit consists of 200 mounted peltasts. Losing 200 again and gaining 100 back means the total deposit now consists of 300 mounted peltasts. You still have a ways to go in order to bank the 440 mounted peltasts for the next big payout, even though you're at 25% of your original strength. 

Why make the change?

Under the old system, positions were relatively easy to play from levels 1-100. You could profit in millions of units. When you finally get to levels 100+ and especially level 125 though, you start to notice some glaring problems. A level 125 position could reward 8000 agema horsemen (194,216,000 resources). While they were awesome to get, they also presented a huge question. How in the world do you get 19,421,600 resources worth of units in order to pay the interest and get another payout? Without drachmas, you would have to spend weeks and weeks training units just for one payout, only to repeat the process again. Without taking the time to prepare, players would commonly throw all 8000 agema horsemen back into positions and get absolutely nothing back.

The worst case scenario of earning 0 units no longer exists as long as you can complete a single position. Losing 8000 agema horseman should gain you 1000-4000 back. You should be able to see more value in your units if you are a positions player, since they'll repeatedly recycle themselves. They should last by the time you're capable of paying the interest and getting another big payout.

Now that you know this information, try playing positions again and come back with more experienced feedback. We'd love to hear it.

If you have any questions regarding the new algorithm for persian positions, post them in this thread and I'll get try to back to them. 

Edit: grammar

Changing this method mean there no more Light Unit+Heavy+Phalanx to get Cavalry

Instead it turn into, how many you spend on that position it only return 30% as reward so how many time you do, it only 30% reward while the 70% is DEAD...and i mean DEAD that u cant eventually taken it back from what you lose.

using lower unit from light+heavy+phalanx and sacrifice them to the persian will reward you cavalry but the number of loses remain 70%.

1m defensive unit that mean u only get 300k per completing an position that mean there is 700k unit of various type still hold at the bank....build up lower unit complete the position to exchange to higher unit like phlanx and cavalry of 30% while 70% remain at persian bank...keep swapping if you have lower unit till the bank hold 70% low unit instead it count as 700k defensive unit of various type.

PrimeGuardian said:

Instead it turn into, how many you spend on that position it only return 30% as reward so how many time you do, it only 30% reward while the 70% is DEAD...and i mean DEAD that u cant eventually taken it back from what you lose.

Actually, you will eventually earn that 70% back.

Ovidiu78 said:

What do you mean by "DEAD" and do you know that? Previously the core idea was troops lost while fighting persians do accumulate to eventually be returned as a bigger payout. Now i can understand an alternate logic saying guaranteed rewards, but this does not mean the core idea changed 

You're right, since you can still weaken several positions without finishing them to raise your bank.

I undesrtand the new system will rather fraction payouts if you finish them all rather than just grind them partially as usual.

It sounds more like an answer to impatient players who don't even evaluate their losses to know where they are towards the bank and come only saying "I've hit Persians n times and still no reward".

Anyway, I've stil got to try it, but first, finishing to pay the bank back, i.e. not finishing any position yet as I'm about half way. Only then I'll try to finish several positions in sequence (the usual way to actually get the payout when it has random chances to drop) and check what I get.

P.S. : moderators are only that : forum moderators. We're not Plarium engineers.

Today i tested on a l22 defensive positions with not yet venture sign.

I send in 500 javeline+20cretan and 10 thuerephoros all max agreement.

Total dead unit is 430jav+16cretan+8Thurephoros

Reward unit from completing this l22 def position is 24 Cretan

Accumulate of 30% reward from 90% dead unit

deducted i lose 60% of the unit that i send.

and there is no way i can get this 60% unit back in any position reward at all, so i test on 2nd offensive position of l53

Send in 200 Macedonian Cavalry

Lose 189 Cavalry

Reward 35 Agema

Result is i lose 70% of the macedonian Offensive cavalry.

Conclusion: Actually u cant regain back the each position unit you have lose from any position u gonna hit afterward because the position will only return 30% of what u spent to that position only.

I give up, i will never spend any single unit to this persian position onward.

Greetings all! 

I tried to provide you with more information on the changes, as  the update on Positions reward system may trigger a lot of questions (and I see it already).

1. Why did we decide to make these changes?

We have always received countless complaints from players claiming that "Positions weren’t working" or assuming that we’d changed the Positions payout system.

Some of our players thought that reward system was working incorrectly exclusively for them, as they would see huge rewards on screenshots shared on the Forums by other players, while receiving nothing (or only small rewards) themselves. One of the main problems was that players would end up losing most or all of their army before getting a reward.

This was a problem especially for new players who still hadn’t learned the intricacies of how Positions worked, and also for some of our veteran players, who were engaging higher-level Positions, where the gaps between payouts were significantly longer (but the rewards were bigger). So, we decided to alter the scheme to avoid this frustration.

Now, you will save some of your troops if you lose a battle against Xerxes. Sure, it’s not enough of an army to mount another attack right away, but it’s still better than losing after walking into a Persian ambush you weren’t prepared for!

2. Did my reward progression (in other words - Positions Bank) reset to zero?

No, Archons, all your results were not reset. You can continue hitting Positions and get the rewards you’ve been building up to.

3. Why do I get small rewards, despite numerous losses?

From now on, you get small rewards for every win. Gods feel that you deserve to get a prize for every victory. You worked hard to win a battle for the Position you should be rewarded for taking this challenge.

This doesn't mean that you won't also get those bigger rewards you used to get prior to the update. Those still happen – there’s just greater consistency now.

4. How do these frequent small rewards affect the overall reward system?

You'll need to hit more Positions in order to claim the big rewards you used to get. On the other hand, you will always receive bonus troops for a win.

5. Will we still get big, really big, rewards for Positions?

As we have added the rewards for every victory, the really big rewards will be rarer, but you can still get them if you keep fighting at the Positions.

>> Archons, be advised: changes to the rewards system were made with extreme care – our priority was to keep the overall rewards balance the same. <>

One more thing, every Archon has his / her own reward progression stage, so not all the advantages will immediately be obvious to everyone.

Give yourself some time to analyze the update.

The system is new, so you will need to commit some time and thought to it and recalibrate your strategy. This is a challenge that real Archons are faced with often!

If you still have any questions, feel free to leave them below.

This is what happen when getting Reward from spending So Much...actually it happen to me.

Dear Leonidas,

It a heart broken to let you know that this new system of Persian Position is killing us.

If can, please make it a profitable rather than spending so much just to earn so less.....the reward only the 30% of the total unit we spend on completing a position and there no way we profit or cover the loses during this process......

I'm losing so much men and getting so less....losing my appetite.

if we still get big reward after some time, and since we don't know when it will be, what if i get huge reward from lvl 10 position instead of for example lvl 60.

will my huge reward be lost by big % due to  resource caps at certain levels or bank will carry on?

or we wont get huge reward until we hit high enough position, which can actually pay out banked resources?

Alltho i understand the mechanic that theyve put in now, i tested it with a friend (coz im waay to high to go gamble if things arent verified) and he had payout before this change 135 macedons and couple of resources, after hitting 12+ positions in a row various lvls (min 30 -max 50) we never been able to get the actual ammount of offense strenght or resources back no matter what, in calculation we lost 120k offense power after the "big payout has happen" and basically big payout was junk units comparing that be4 u could allmost allways get horses for phalax+heavy+ light (now managed to get even mrymadons with combination of sindon pikes/golden shields and spartan promachoi) so sencerly what ur telling us that we actually benefit from this and what is the truth is completly different thing, there is no way in any calculation that u can go no more in any kind of + only -, least before you could build and invest and build and invest and again build and invest to get something out of it now when you get on lvl 47 position 17 agemas payout after u wacked god knows how many troops on it we should be happy about it? Allso since i had very big payout in agemas and mpelts right before update, now in calc. it will take me like a year to build up enough light heavy and phalax to get to new payout and im building the most expensive ones 24/7, coz each time ill get some random crappy units back which in end will eat up a nice payout i should get when i finish the cycle... its kinda a no go for me coz in equasion all players that are hitting persians seriously will have like massive losses to get 30% back and in end when payout happens they will not even have the actual offense power they had before not to mention to get in + is impossible, good thing is that u speeded up units so i gues we gonna start killing eachother now with all types of units not only horses that we used to get from persians before this update. If anyone ever gets a + or be square on persians after this update aka. unit power invested / final "bigger" payout please post here to convince me. thx and best of luck.

Honestly, the god favour us with this kind of every position with reward and rarer big reward during is breath taking...

there will be not enough army to hit so much position to get an rare reward when you manage to get them you actually have lose almost 10-30% of you're original army.

how many time you complete the position you end up losing army in the end, just what i did from level 35 till level 58 position.....all my elite reward unit from various event just tun into light+heavy instead they were phalanx.

even if i add up all the reward and left over def phalanx it not even near the number before sending them in.

650 thuere of 373k defensive after clearing 12 defensive position from l32 to l55 i end up having 260k various type from cretan+peltast+trojan+mounted peltast.....where is the rest of the 113k defensive go......when there no more def position left....even if i use the left over of this 260k defensive, i dont think i manage to clear 2morow position where it most start from l35+.....oh god, what have i done to deserve this misery.....

until now there no player here saying earn more than usual, all complain here and there especially me....my precious phalanx turn into mix juice army.......

Apparently, the kind of reward now depends directly from the level you hit, so don't play the lower ones, or play them with light infantry (you do get heavy out of them).

I've been finishing to pay the bank back and had some accidental finishes (with various small payouts), so I substracted them and went on paying back until I was done, then finished all that was pending.

The results are apparently random. In the end I had spent 20.5 millions ot get 17.8 millions worth of troops (mostly horses and some phalanx) + resources.

The balance isn't quite right, but it's not so horrific either... But you it's definitely unfair : you get an average payout of 3/4 of your investment.

I was grinding then finishing a dozen of positions from level 38 to 58, so it can be considered statistically accurate enough.

As I said, the level is important, but it's more a matter of levels range. After level 30 or so, you do always get horses + a few phalanx. The best payout I got was actually from a level 48 (266 Macedonians + 53 mounted Peltasts) !

There's also an abvious flaw in the "30% survivors" system : it happens only if you actually fail. If you win, you lose all (or lose all but 1 soldier, at least when you match forces, which is I've always done to maximize payouts).

Maybe it's not worth matching forces anymore in this case, since you always lose an equivalent amount as the Persians losses anyway if you overhwhelm them, but the other important point is : send less than necessary, lose the battle, get 30% surviviors and send them back. Chances are there's only 1 Dailamite left then, so you'll lose nothing and get the reward.

Doing so, it costs you 70% of the troops you would have lost finishing the position in one shot, which is kind of unbalanced if you ask me.