Holy shiet TL;DR

Ugh, Player J....

In response to your very, very long-winded rant about how I do not know how to gear:

1)  Not going to bother ascending a junk legendary.

2)  The gear was irrelevant to my testing.  I used the gear as "control gear."  You were too busy ranting to pay attention to that part.  You clearly don't understand what the term "control group" means.  Do some research online, I am not going to be your teacher here too.

3)  Don't need your opinions on speed.  I am currently in silver, and have Nethril to bump down the TMs of the opponent.  My other champions other than him don't need particularly high speed, as his ability is the only one I need to cast first.  80% of the time, he goes first, and when he does, he bumps the enemy's TMs down 75%.  You are looking at the situation in a very, VERY narrow-minded perspective.  And again, all control champions I used to compare him to had the same exact gear I used on them.

4)  If you make him a "tank" then his damage goes down even more and he becomes even more of a waste of space.  You again clearly have NO idea how he functions, his lack of damage, how situational A3 is, etc.  You just aren't getting it and are making MANY incorrect assumptions.

5)  You have way too much time on your hands to rant about things that really are irrelevant since no matter how much you defend a champion out of complete ignorance (since you have never used him yourself), it will NEVER change the fact that Plarium is already aware he is under-powered, just like me and anyone else who owns him knows all too well.

God said:

Ugh, Player J....

In response to your very, very long-winded rant about how I do not know how to gear:

1)  Not going to bother ascending a junk legendary.

2)  The gear was irrelevant to my testing.  I used the gear as "control gear."  You were too busy ranting to pay attention to that part.  You clearly don't understand what the term "control group" means.  Do some research online, I am not going to be your teacher here too.

3)  Don't need your opinions on speed.  I am currently in silver, and have Nethril to bump down the TMs of the opponent.  My other champions other than him don't need particularly high speed, as his ability is the only one I need to cast first.  80% of the time, he goes first, and when he does, he bumps the enemy's TMs down 75%.  You are looking at the situation in a very, VERY narrow-minded perspective.  And again, all control champions I used to compare him to had the same exact gear I used on them.

4)  If you make him a "tank" then his damage goes down even more and he becomes even more of a waste of space.  You again clearly have NO idea how he functions, his lack of damage, how situational A3 is, etc.  You just aren't getting it and are making MANY incorrect assumptions.

5)  You have way too much time on your hands to rant about things that really are irrelevant since no matter how much you defend a champion out of complete ignorance (since you have never used him yourself), it will NEVER change the fact that Plarium is already aware he is under-powered, just like me and anyone else who owns him knows all too well.

I can't keep replying to your rants to disabuse your misconceptions.  You don't get it, won't get it, and I don't even think you have the capacity TO get it here, especially with the suggestion to make Tomb Lord a "tank" lmao.  Yea, hard enough to make A2 useful, good luck doing so when he ends up hitting with it for 4k because of you "tanking" him up.  But you clearly already have your mind made up.  And again, I am not wasting my time maxing out his ascensions when I already know he is trash.  If you max out all your trash champions, then glad you have that type of free time on your hands.  I don't waste my time doing that.

• You have no accession on your Tomb Lord.
• You have horrible gear on your Tomb Lord which you call “control gear”.
• You have horrible Accuracy on your Tomb Lord.
• You have no Legendary Tomes invested in your Tomb Lord.

Than in 1 breathe you tell me I’m completely ignorant because I don’t know how bad Tomb Lord is.

The only Tomb Lord which is bad is yours!

BECAUSE YOU HAVE INVESTED NOTHING TO MAKE HIM BETTER!

You can blame the hero all you want.

It doesn’t change anything because I know the real problem isn’t the hero.

It’s the heroes owner!

Just to throw my 2 cents in the Arena.

I do think most characters are good in one capacity or another or in one situation or another.The real issue is how much are you willing to spend to have every character for every situation?A fully maxed Sister Militant team can go trough spider like there's no tomorrow but no F2P or semi P2W will waste resources on that.I have 5 6* after 2.5 months of game play and you can imagine had to carefully look trough my roster who should i 6*.As a F2P i need characters that are semi good in every situation until i can build more specialized ones.

Your Tomb Lord stats are wrong for what he is used for.From my experience in the Arena you need 180+ Speed with speed aura or 200+ without and 140+ Accuracy to to get to deploy debuffs first.

Also you don't really need matching sets.If you get say a retaliation 5* chest with 14 speed sub stat and accuracy main stat you have almost 2 sets worth accuracy and 1 set worth of speed in one gear piece.You can get almost 80 Accuracy on a shield+helm of unrelated sets.

For example this basic glove:

You could say "what a piece of crap" and prolly compared to some P2W gear from the cash shop it is but,when fully maxed you get 40% ATK and 9%-10% crit rate which makes it almost 3 ATK sets worth of bonus stats and almost 1 Crit set worth of bonus.And you get 12 speed too if you pair it with another speed gear.And i didn't even consider the substats you get till level 16.

My Zavia has 183 accuracy without accuracy set on and only level 4 Great Hall.You need to play the sub stat game because most set bonuses not worth what you could lose on the sub stats.

If you feel a character is not good you could build your team other ways.For example you can use Warmaiden for decrease DEF,another to buff ATK and 2 nukers so you don't actually need the decrease ATK from Tomb Lord.

And to finish this,i would very much love to have Tomb Lord.He seems to be a CB god with DEF buff,DEF and ATK debuffs and stack crit for constant speed down.

PS.I really really don't wanna be patronizing and you know i'm not a huge fan of Plarium's business model but trust me when i say you are building characters for all around game play and this game is very punishing of that.

Player J said:

God said:

Ugh, Player J....

In response to your very, very long-winded rant about how I do not know how to gear:

1)  Not going to bother ascending a junk legendary.

2)  The gear was irrelevant to my testing.  I used the gear as "control gear."  You were too busy ranting to pay attention to that part.  You clearly don't understand what the term "control group" means.  Do some research online, I am not going to be your teacher here too.

3)  Don't need your opinions on speed.  I am currently in silver, and have Nethril to bump down the TMs of the opponent.  My other champions other than him don't need particularly high speed, as his ability is the only one I need to cast first.  80% of the time, he goes first, and when he does, he bumps the enemy's TMs down 75%.  You are looking at the situation in a very, VERY narrow-minded perspective.  And again, all control champions I used to compare him to had the same exact gear I used on them.

4)  If you make him a "tank" then his damage goes down even more and he becomes even more of a waste of space.  You again clearly have NO idea how he functions, his lack of damage, how situational A3 is, etc.  You just aren't getting it and are making MANY incorrect assumptions.

5)  You have way too much time on your hands to rant about things that really are irrelevant since no matter how much you defend a champion out of complete ignorance (since you have never used him yourself), it will NEVER change the fact that Plarium is already aware he is under-powered, just like me and anyone else who owns him knows all too well.

I can't keep replying to your rants to disabuse your misconceptions.  You don't get it, won't get it, and I don't even think you have the capacity TO get it here, especially with the suggestion to make Tomb Lord a "tank" lmao.  Yea, hard enough to make A2 useful, good luck doing so when he ends up hitting with it for 4k because of you "tanking" him up.  But you clearly already have your mind made up.  And again, I am not wasting my time maxing out his ascensions when I already know he is trash.  If you max out all your trash champions, then glad you have that type of free time on your hands.  I don't waste my time doing that.

• You have no accession on your Tomb Lord.
• You have horrible gear on your Tomb Lord which you call “control gear”.
• You have horrible Accuracy on your Tomb Lord.
• You have no Legendary Tomes invested in your Tomb Lord.

Than in 1 breathe you tell me I’m completely ignorant because I don’t know how bad Tomb Lord is.

The only Tomb Lord which is bad is yours!

BECAUSE YOU HAVE INVESTED NOTHING TO MAKE HIM BETTER!

You can blame the hero all you want.

It doesn’t change anything because I know the real problem isn’t the hero.

It’s the heroes owner!

Kid, do you not understand English well?  Again, all of your statements here just make it more and more obvious how clueless you are as to what a "control group" is, the fact that I compared Tomb Lord to other champions at lvl 50 with NO ascensions as well, while he is at lvl 58 and STILL does FAR worse than them, and so much more you are just blind to.  And if you think you need accuracy at mid-range silver tier, then you haven't even gotten to THAT point in the game yet, much less gold.

You are either trolling, or too stupid to realize you're stupid.  Either way, I can't deal with this level of ignorance.  Go troll somewhere else.  You are attempting to blindly defend a champion you have ZERO experience with personally, so you are clueless as to what issues you run into in arena with him in various groups, no idea how his damage (with comparable gear) does compared to others, how his impact overall on HP and damage/mitigation is, etc.  You are making gross oversimplifications and assumptions that demonstrate a level of ignorance that makes it clear you are hopeless to teach.

And nice attempt at a bandwagon ("the only bad Tomb Lord is yours"), when meanwhile Marius himself even acknowledged the issues with Tomb Lord along with Astralith.  Go check the 1.8 patch thread yourself, then feel very, very stupid for not having any idea what you're talking about.  They are well aware of the issues with Tomb Lord over at Plarium, and Marius is not even the first I have seen acknowledge it.  So the only one on your bandwagon is you, but from your prior rants and lack of competency, I am sure the concept of a logical fallacy like a bandwagon is going to fly right over your head, just like 99% of life does, lol.

Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how well you play, at the end, the pigeon is just going to crap all over the board and strut around like they won.  You Player J, are the pigeon.  It wasn't the teachers, it wasn't the classroom, the problem was you Player J.  Time to wake up to that.  Again, I don't have time to teach you, especially because it's clear it would fall on deaf ears...

God said:

Kid, do you not understand English well?  Again, all of your statements here just make it more and more obvious how clueless you are as to what a "control group" is, the fact that I compared Tomb Lord to other champions at lvl 50 with NO ascensions as well, while he is at lvl 58 and STILL does FAR worse than them, and so much more you are just blind to.  And if you think you need accuracy at mid-range silver tier, then you haven't even gotten to THAT point in the game yet, much less gold.

You are either trolling, or too stupid to realize you're stupid.  Either way, I can't deal with this level of ignorance.  Go troll somewhere else.  You are attempting to blindly defend a champion you have ZERO experience with personally, so you are clueless as to what issues you run into in arena with him in various groups, no idea how his damage (with comparable gear) does compared to others, how his impact overall on HP and damage/mitigation is, etc.  You are making gross oversimplifications and assumptions that demonstrate a level of ignorance that makes it clear you are hopeless to teach.

And nice attempt at a bandwagon ("the only bad Tomb Lord is yours"), when meanwhile Marius himself even acknowledged the issues with Tomb Lord along with Astralith.  Go check the 1.8 patch thread yourself, then feel very, very stupid for not having any idea what you're talking about.  They are well aware of the issues with Tomb Lord over at Plarium, and Marius is not even the first I have seen acknowledge it.  So the only one on your bandwagon is you, but from your prior rants and lack of competency, I am sure the concept of a logical fallacy like a bandwagon is going to fly right over your head, just like 99% of life does, lol.

Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how well you play, at the end, the pigeon is just going to crap all over the board and strut around like they won.  You Player J, are the pigeon.  It wasn't the teachers, it wasn't the classroom, the problem was you Player J.  Time to wake up to that.  Again, I don't have time to teach you, especially because it's clear it would fall on deaf ears...

I’m not a kid.

I know what a control group is.

You put your bad gear on Tomb Lord.

You put the same bad gear on Apothecary.

You than try to compare how both hero’s preform, but it is a flawed comparison.

Apothecary skills are mainly team related skills.

• A1 = Attack 3 times
• A2 = Heal teammate
• A3 = Turn Meter + Speed Buff

Speed Gear on Apothecary preforms very good.

The Speed helps your Apothecary skills active more frequently.

Hero level only effects Apothecary A1 skill the other skills are not obstruct.

The Heroes level increases raw stats which only helps Apothecary A1 deal more damage, but the other skills preform 100% with out the levels.

Tomes enhance Apothecary skills, but they are not required for Apothecary to be successful.

Apothecary can be very successful with out tome investment.

No Accuracy on Apothecary is perfect.

Apothecary skills are only team related so the low Accuracy doesn’t obstruct Apothecary ability to preform very well.

Tomb Lords skills are enemy related skills.

• A1 = Attack 3 times with Speed Debuff
• A2 = Attack 1 time with Poison Debuff
• A3 = Atk Down + Def Down + Turn Meter Down Debuff

Speed Gear on Tomb Lord preform mildly.

The Speed helps Tomb Lord A3 active more frequently, but it doesn’t effect any of Tomb Lords other skills.

The other skills are Damage + Debuff related.

Hero Level is a critical factor for Tomb Lord.

Hero Level increases raw stats which help a hero who can deal Damage do more Damage.

Reduced levels can alter the heroes ability to preform well.

The majority of Tomb Lord skills are Damage related.

Tome enhancement is critical factor for Tomb Lord.

The hero performance hinges on his ability to place a Debuff or deal Damage.

All of which require Tome Investments.

The skill upgrades increase Debuff Chance percentages or Damage multiplier.

No Accuracy or Low Accuracy effects Tombs Ability to land a Debuff.

The hero can’t function properly with out these things.

What did your control group show you?

Apothecary preforms amazing.

Tomb Lord preforms horrible.

Big Whoop!

Any idiot can see the control group your using is trash.

They can’t be measured or compare in the same way.

There abilities to perform well are entirely different.

The only thing your control group has done is wasted your silver.

Equipping & Unequipping the same Gear.

People have said I have the Chess playing Strength of a Class A Chess player 1,800-2,000.

If I get any stronger, I will become a Candidate Chess Master 2,000-2,200.

So no the average non-Chess person doesn’t want to play me in Chess because I will win.

Player J, I would love to know why you so desperately defend Tomb Lord???

Let's say I maxed his skills.  Let's say he had the 100% chance to debuff everyone, had so much accuracy that he was almost never resisted, and let's say the enemy doesn't have someone who can remove/protect from debuffs.  Let's say those VERY specific circumstances occurred, making Tomb Lord useful.

To start here, you tried to act like speed isn't important.  Completely false.  If Tomb Lord doesn't get his A3 cast before the enemy blows their strongest skills, it is SUBSTANTIALLY less useful.  And again, the fact that you seem to think accuracy is needed so badly in arena shows me that you don't have much experience in arena yet.  I am only in silver, yet I am well aware accuracy is NOT something desperately needed in arena.  If you have more than 100 accuracy in an arena encounter, you are wasting points on overkill.  So, you don't even have your stat priority right, yet are criticizing me for "not knowing how to use him"? 

And of course the control gear was only used on champions comparable to him.  I already have Pain Keeper as a healer in arena (when I actually do use a healer and don't go full speed/offense).  The list of champions were ones I swapped out with various teams.  The control gear was NOT something I placed on Apo, nor would I. 

And one thing you are failing to realize is that you don't get where Tomb Lord's worst shortcomings are.  It is NOT an issue of not getting the debuff off.  It is about any number of things that end up going wrong with the debuff AFTER it is cast, the lack of damage he does after it is cast, and the fact that it is the only useful thing he actually does and it can only be cast once every 5 turns at best.

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Here's the problems that you aren't experiencing and why your perspective is so very, very limited:

1)  His first debuff is not going to end up on enemies with less than 50% HP, so the TM debuff is not going to happen.  If their HP were lower than 50%, it also most likely means they have blown their best skills already and so the debuff immediately loses value.  (And this is why speed IS required on Tomb Lord to get a fast cast of A3 BEFORE the enemy blows their best skills).

2)  So, best case scenario in round 1 in arena, he gets his A3 casts and debuffs every single champion.  Ok, great, right?  Oh wait, here's a few things that went wrong:

a)  The enemy team DOES have debuff protection/removal and the A3 was a waste of a turn as they remove the debuff and make Tomb Lord their b*tch.

b)  The enemy team has Roshcard, so it doesn't matter that their defense was reduced, as they are invincible for the duration of the debuff anyway.

c)  While your team was debuffing with Tomb Lord, theirs was focused on offense.  While I attacked with one champion, say Nethril, then Tomb Lord next, I only technically got one attack so far.  Meanwhile, before I get a 3rd attack, say the enemy, having equal speed, had two turns as well.  They had two offensive champions attack, and with those TWO attacks compared to my ONE attack, they killed one of my champions.  Now, Tomb Lord's debuff has one less champion to take advantage of it, because while I was busy debuffing, they were busy attacking.  Advantage - other team.  You seem to be failing to consider this Player J - Tomb Lord's debuffs are ONLY useful if the other allies on my team are STILL alive.  If he doesn't have enough speed, that may NOT be the case by the time A3 is cast.

d)  The enemy team has an anti-death champion, like say Crimson Helm.  So, I debuff with Tomb Lord, kill a couple of them, they resurrect without the debuff.  Debuff wasted.

e)  The enemy team has a champion that prevents death.  Tomb Lord's debuffs drop off before the death prevention buff does.  Debuff worthless, you lose as a result.

f)  The enemy team has champions whose damage are dependent on values OTHER than attack, like HP.  Now, half of Tomb Lord's debuff was worthless.

g)  Tomb Lord only reduces defense.  If someone was geared with tons of HP rather than tons of defense, the debuff is fairly worthless on those champions.  Their HPs will remain unaffected, and the defense drop will be negligible.  And I know FAR more champions that gear with lots of HP than I do ones that gear with lots of defense. 

h)  Even when you DO reduce the defense on a champion, oftentimes, the difference is not as substantial as you'd think.  A 60% drop in their defense by NO means makes it 60% easier to kill them.  The reduction has NO impact on their HP, only on their defense, and it is only a % of the defense.  So, if they have low defense, but lots of HP instead, the defense reduction may only improve the result of your attacks by say 15%.  So then, you have to calculate that even if he debuffs every single enemy, a 15% improvement on attacks to the other 3 champions only equates to 45% of an actual attack.  So, after 2 turns (and him attacking during one of them after A3), that would equate to 105% of an attack after TWO turns.  Not sure if you are understanding the math here, but what that means is that within TWO turns, Tomb Lord only contributed a damage equivalent to 105% of a turn, meaning he was a waste of two turns that should have been 200% (100% of a turn each turn).  This is of course a rough estimate, but if you saw how marginally the decrease in defense impacted attacks, you'd understand that a 60% decrease does not equal 60% more damage to the champion.

i)  The enemy team was faster than you.  They already got off their most powerful attacks.  Tomb Lord will now reduce their A1s or secondary attacks instead, being substantially less useful (assuming your team is even still alive by then), and *if* the fight lasts to where the enemy can cast their A3 (or other strongest attack) again, [Blight] at maxed skills has a cooldown of 5 turns.  So, they will most likely get to recast their strongest attack again before Tomb Lord ever gets to debuff them again.

j)  A3 is Tomb Lord's only use.  A2 hits ridiculously weak, but let's say he DOES get the poisons cast for the sake of argument.  It's poisons that only last one turn.  They can be removed, protected from (anti-debuff champions), and are only 5% each.  If it were a clan boss, sure, 5% is nice.  On a champion, 15% of their HP???  Most other good arena champions can attack for FAR more than 15% of an opponent's HP.  Hell, many of the GREAT ones can one-shot, like my Deathless oftentimes does.  And considering Tomb Lord's A2 debuff is a poison, it doesn't happen immediately, allowing any number of things to go wrong for you before it does (ex. debuff removal, damage reflection, resurrection after death, etc.).

k)  Before you got to cast A3, the enemy team locked your skills (as PLENTY of champions can do this).  Now, all Tomb Lord can do is attack with A1.  You may as well have Pee-Wee Herman in the arena with you, because Tomb Lord's A1 probably hits with the force Pee-Wee would.  In this case, again Tomb Lord becomes worthless, you lose.

l)  The enemy team did some serious damage to you while you were debuffing instead of attacking, and now, you need to use one of your champion's skills to heal a bit just to survive.  So, instead of attacking and taking advantage of Tomb Lord's debuffs, you are instead trying to heal your own champion(s).  This means that aforementioned 105% of a turn is reduced even more, as one of your champions did not even get to strike the enemy.  This is again where Tomb Lord's effectiveness is dependent on your other champions, and unless you can focus 100% on offense, the debuffs Tomb Lord does don't get fully utilized and could go to waste.

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I could list PLENTY more issues I have run into trying to use Tomb Lord in arena.  The fact of the matter is, you do not have the experience, so have no idea what you are rambling on about.  Your are making up a pseudo-argument based on ignorance (due to lack of experience) and arguing against someone who has the experience.  I wasted my time maxing out Tomb Lord to 6 stars, just because I *wanted* to like him.  I *wanted* to make him useful.  However, there is just too many, many things that can go wrong with A3 in arena to make him viable.

And Tomb Lord's skills and gear not being maxed is irrelevant.  Like I already said, I was comparing him to other champions who were ALSO not maxed yet.  I was testing all of them to see who was actually worth maxing out, and he is far from it.  If I maxed out those other champions, they'd be more useful as well, and still substantially better than Tomb Lord.

You clearly just don't have experience with debuffers in arena.  You haven't experienced firsthand how often things can go wrong and the debuffs get wasted.  And again, while you are debuffing with Tomb Lord, if the enemy team is instead attacking, they are burning you down while you are debuffing to *prepare* to burn them down.  They have the upper hand.

Yes, Tomb Lord can be GREAT against VERY specific teams.  More often than not, he is not useful at all and is a waste of space.  And I now have two more legendaries, Bystophus, and Inithwe, along with a few more epics.  I had enough energy to cap them all to 5 stars.  Every single one of them is FAR more useful in arena than he is, even at 5 stars while he is at 6.  So, isn't it funny that I know how to utilize other champions, but when it comes to Tomb Lord, your excuse is "oh, you just don't know how to use him"?  I mean come on man, you are arguing just to argue.  You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

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And allow me to explain why a few other legendaries are SO much better.  And again, I am basing this off personal experience.

Nethril - I have his speed maxed out in arena and use him to slow down the enemy.  I cast A3 first, which decreases the enemy's TM by 75%.  I don't have to worry about anti-debuffers, because it is not a debuff - it's just an ability of A3.  Next turn, I use A2, which can stun the enemy (75% chance at max skill), or if it doesn't stun, it slows them by 30%.  The stun is FAR superior to Tomb Lord's debuffs, as if a champion is stunned, I don't need to worry about their attack. ;) 

Anyway, with Nethril's skills, there are times I can burn the enemy down without them even getting a single attack before I have had 2 full turns with ALL my champions.  The TM reduction and stun from him is just amazing, and it is RARELY ever resisted.  Even when it is, his damage is STILL pretty impressive, even though my focus is speed on him (and 150 accuracy for clan boss, which I already know is overkill for arena but necessary for cb).  Nethril blows Tomb Lord out the water, hands down, as Nethril is ALWAYS useful regardless of enemy team composition.

Inithwe - This dude is fairly new, but VERY useful in arena.  For starters, he has a passive skill that prevents any enemy that was killed by him from resurrecting, and gives him back 30% of his max HP each time he kills them to boot.  So, he eliminates the concern of ressurectors on the enemy team that are loaded up with HP and/or defense.  I can instead focus on burning down the damage-dealers, which is of course much easier in most cases.

Inithwe is a GREAT finisher.  I have all attack % gear on him with cruel sets, and primary focus is damage to clean up after my other champions have attacked.  So, like with Hordin (another finisher), no speed is necessary on him.  I have A2 to burn down whatever champion took a lot of damage on the enemy team, and heals himself by 30% of his max HP, which is why I am fine with him going last in turn.  He is going to get his HP back anyway through killing enemies or leeching them.  And if there is no champion to burn down with A2 yet, I can cast A3 and leech all the enemies health away.  And for long encounters with defense/HP teams, his A1 weans down their max HP, while I drain their HP with leech every 3 turns.  He is fairly OP if you know what to cast when, but an example of what you *should* expect in a legendary.

Bystophus - This guy's A3 is FAR more useful than Tomb Lord.  Not only can it decrease defense like Tomb Lord, but it also locks down cooldown skills.  This is FAR better than reducing the attack of the enemy.  The great thing too is that unlike with Tomb Lord, *if* the team does have debuff removal skills, this usually locks those skills down, so they can't remove the debuff like they can with Tomb Lord. 

And then on 2nd turn, casting A2 lets me get crits on each champion that got their skills locked down.  Heals Bystophus for 20% of the damage inflicted as well.  This immediate crit on champions is not only FAR more damage than what Tomb Lord does (at 10 levels higher than my Bystophus mind you), but it is immediate, rather than poisons that you have to wait for (which gives time for champions to remove them or heal before taking the damage). 

And while Tomb Lord's A1 slows an enemy down at best, Bystophus' A1 has a 65% chance of locking down skills for a turn.  And, like with all epics and legendaries I have used to date, Bystophus of course does FAR more damage with his A1 than does Tomb Lord.

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Like I said, you don't have the experience playing with Tomb Lord, nor does it seem like you have much experience with debuffers yet in general when it comes to arena.  Once you do, you will see why Tomb Lord falls short. 

I already made a post thoroughly describing all his issues and the simple fixes.  A few easy ways to fix him:

*  His debuffs need to not be resisted.  They need to be more sure-fire. 
*  His damage needs to be increased A LOT. 
*  His damage SHOULD be based on HP or defense, NOT attack.  His survivability as a support champion is horrid currently.
*  His TM reduction needs to be based on something other than the enemy's HP being below 50%. 
*  The conditional poisons on A2 needs to be modified (at least make it so that it poisons the target if it doesn't kill the target). 
*  His A1 debuff condition needs to be altered from depending on crit, and as a legendary who is intended for arena, it should most certainly be something OTHER than a speed reduction debuff he can do to the enemy.

He can be fixed easily, but again, while you aren't seeing it Player J, Plarium already has and has acknowledged it.  So, it doesn't matter how much you defend Tomb Lord, they are already planning to modify him, making our discussion here fairly moot.

And sorry if I came off as rude earlier.  Just frustrating when someone is arguing from ignorance.  I figured I would instead take the approach of attempting to educate you on why Tomb Lord fails in any number of ways in arena.  And I don't run into those issues with Nethril, nor Hordin, nor Inithwe, nor Aothar, nor Magmablood, as even when their debuffs fail, they have the damage that is at least useful.

I am defending Tomb Lord because Tomb Lord doesn’t have a voice of his own to tell you how absurd you are being.

You know nothing about my experience in Arena.

You make a lot of baseless wrong assumptions.

Chofly(Moderator) made a YouTube video of an Gold 1 Arena Offense Team.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PPHAzQ2Iy8M

LaksonVeil from reddit made an Gold 1 Arena Offense Team Guide using only farmable Campaign hero’s.

https://www.reddit.com/comments/bq2uwf

I made a Forum guide talking about Arena Defense Team.

It was mainly for beginners, but the concepts do translate to top tier Gold Arena Defense teams.

The issue is you are looking at those points in a narrow minded view set.

Most if not all Arena Burst Offense teams run a Def Down hero.

Chofly in his video used Bellower.

LaksonVeil in his Reddit guide uses WarMadien.

I in my Arena Offense Team use Spider.

You in your Arena Offense Team use TombLord.

Your alphabet a) says: if enemy has a Debuff removal/blocker, The Def Down is removed and it makes Tomb Lord their B. LOL

Do you think any other Def Down Hero besides Tomb Lord will do better?

I gave you a list of 3 other hero’s people use for there Def Down capability.

Do you see why you are wrong?

Debuff removal cripples all Debuff related heroes.

It isn’t exclusive to Tomb Lord.

All your alphabet reasons on why Tomb Lord is bad isn’t exclusive to Tomb Lord.

Those are general flaws all hero’s with a similar role possess.

You make it sound as if Tomb Lord is the only hero suffering & is useless.

When the reality of the situation is Tomb Lord fairs no different than any other hero.

You are so narrowly focused on showing why Tomb Lord is bad.

You are not objective in your Assessment of Tomb Lord.

You want Tomb Lord to be bad so you make Tomb Lord bad.

Tomb Lord has very good qualities which you simply don’t care about.

Tomb Lord has very good qualities which you simply don’t care to harness.

You are right about 1 thing - ignorance!

Yes, I am ignorant for trying to convince you a hero is good when you clearly have your mind made up.

No, normal adult would have tried as hard as I have tried.

They would of made 1 comment saying you are idiot.

Than they would of did brief explanation on why Tomb Lord is viable.

Than they would of left your thread and never came back.

Nethril & Bystophus are both Attacking type hero’s.

You make a lot of faulty comparisons to try and justify your points.

You need to make proper comparisons based on the role of the hero!

Let me help you make a better comparison.

You said you want to use Tomb Lord for his A3.

You are using him in an Arena Burst Offense Team as a Def Down hero.

You should compare Tomb Lord with someone like WarMaiden.

The comparisons is a massacre!

Tomb Lord blows WarMaiden out of the water.

WarMaiden provides Def Down.

Tomb Lord provides Def Down + Atk Down + TM Down.

You should than compare Tomb Lord to someone else with similar role.

Let’s say you Compare Tomb Lord to my Spider - Dark Elf - Epic.

My Spider is Max Tomed!

The comparisons between Spider + Tomb Lord isn’t as easy.

Spider has Def Down + Weaken.

Tomb Lord has Def Down + Atk Down + TM Down 

Tomb Lord A3 is superior in comparison to Spider A3.

BUT TOMB LORD ISN’T OUT OF THE WOODS, YET!

Spider has A1 + A2 Stripping Skills vs. Tomb Lord A1 + A2 Damage Skills.

Spider can remove shields buffs, Block Damage buffs, & other pesky buffs.

Spider would probably be the better supporting hero as all his skills are centered around support.

However, Tomb Lord  is more flexible vs. Spider.

Spider can only function as a Support

Tomb Lord can function as a Support, Tank, or Damage Dealer

This gives Tomb Lord more splash ability.

Let’s say I owned both Spider & Tomb Lord.

Let’s say I wanted a hero to only do Def Down.

Tomb Lord would be the best hero to do that function because his A3 is superior to Spider A3.

My Spider would than be useless because I have no other role to use him in.

Let’s say I need an overall support hero with Def Down + to removal pesky Roschard buffs.

I would pick Spider over Tomb Lord.

BUT HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE TOMB LORD ISN’T USELESS AFTER THE ROLE SWITCH.

I can change the way Tomb Lord functions to a Tanky or Damage Dealing role.

It makes Tomb Lord a better all around hero.

This is the type of comparisons you should be thinking about.

kumiluoti said:

I would really recommend to check IncredibleJohn in YouTube and how he uses his Tomb Lord. His Tomb Lord is unstoppable beast and nowadays i'd really like to get Tomb Lord myself. At least in one of his videos he actually goes into details why Tomb Lord is so underrated and that he's actually a beast if built right. It is true that Tomb Lord isn't that great if you don't invest heavily into him. But if you don't own other legendaries Tomb Lord is actually a wise investment.

Not going to quote your whole post Player J, but I know the point you're trying to make.  And like I already said, he *can* be viable at times, but there are just MANY champions that can make him worthless.

And as far as the other support/defense down champions you mentioned, every single one of those on that list do FAR more damage than he does.  So yes, he breaks down defense more than most.  However, after that, the next 5 turns he is just a wasted space in the line-up.  So, he is not superior to them like you might think as far as viability.  And if those debuffs are removed or otherwise avoided, he is worthless.  He is VERY situational, which you seem to just not want to accept.

And anyway, you keep trying to create a false bandwagon.  You keep accusing ME of not liking him, and making some sort of false bandwagon where everyone else thinks he is great.  Meanwhile, multiple Plarium staff have admitted he is broken and needs work.

Like I have said NUMEROUS times that you have failed to acknowledge, Marius himself (he is a mod here in case you don't know) has acknowledged that Tomb Lord is on their list of champions to fix.  So, if he is so amazing, why did Marius make it clear that the top two on that list is Astralith and Tomb Lord???

The problem in arena is not just that he is situational either.  It's that the circumstances for both teams is VERY situational.  Against some teams in arena, yes, he can be an absolute beast when combined with glass cannons.  However, since he is so situational, you have to pick and choose who you will battle VERY selectively.

With that said, a Tomb Lord can be a VERY easy target for anti-debuff/debuff removal teams.  So, while he can be good on offense at times, he is horrible on defense.  He just becomes a target for those teams to farm.

As I have already said numerous times, you have not played with him and are looking at it from the outside without personal experience.  I mean really think about it Player J - I know how to use ALL my other champions properly, yet for some odd reason, I don't know how to with Tomb Lord?  Player J, it's not rocket science.  I know because I know rocket science - I was a physics major.  And like I said, I was a record-breaking warlock in WoW for years.  So, you can save your time in trying to accuse me of not knowing how to use him properly.  It's simple - combine him with burst to burn down the enemy.  He is used in place of a healer, as you want all your champions to take advantage of his debuffs.  It's quite simple, but no matter how much you try to over-complicate it Player J, he sucks, Plarium knows he sucks, and nothing you say is going to convince them or myself otherwise.  Again, I have the experience, and with multiple different team combinations.  He just isn't up to par with other legendaries.  He isn't even up to par with epics.  He is on par with the usefulness of a rare.  That's it, and not a top-tier rare even.

As far as your comparisons Player J:

Warmaiden - Her A2 is FAR better than Tomb Lord's A2.  She hits MUCH harder than he does, even at level 50 (which is the max I brought her to).  Her A1 also hits MUCH harder than his A1.  So sure, his debuffs CAN be better than hers, assuming they stick on the enemy.  However, she continues to be useful after, while he doesn't.  And you again forgot that TM down from Tomb Lord is worthless, since none of the enemy SHOULD be below 50% by the time he casts it.  If they are, you are already at a disadvantage.  So, you are now trying to make up make believe advantages for Tomb Lord just to make a pseudo-argument?  Both I and two others already mentioned the issue with his TM condition (less than 50% HP).

Spider - Are you seriously trying to say Tomb Lord is better than Spider?  Seriously???  Spider can remove/reduce buffs on the opponent, something EXTREMELY valuable in almost every encounter.  And on top of that, he also debuffs with his A2 WHILE doing damage WHILE removing buffs!!!  I would MUCH rather have Spider than Tomb Lord!

And I can certainly compare attack and HP champions to Tomb Lord in regards to usefulness.  Just because one is an attacker and another is a debuffer, doesn't change the fact that they both have their own separate usefulness in the game.  Tomb Lord's just isn't that great.  He is WAY too much of a niche, and as stated countless times by both me and multiple other people, his skills contradict one another in terms of conditions.

God said:

Not going to quote your whole post Player J, but I know the point you're trying to make.  And like I already said, he *can* be viable at times, but there are just MANY champions that can make him worthless.

And as far as the other support/defense down champions you mentioned, every single one of those on that list do FAR more damage than he does.  So yes, he breaks down defense more than most.  However, after that, the next 5 turns he is just a wasted space in the line-up.  So, he is not superior to them like you might think as far as viability.  And if those debuffs are removed or otherwise avoided, he is worthless.  He is VERY situational, which you seem to just not want to accept.

And anyway, you keep trying to create a false bandwagon.  You keep accusing ME of not liking him, and making some sort of false bandwagon where everyone else thinks he is great.  Meanwhile, multiple Plarium staff have admitted he is broken and needs work.

Like I have said NUMEROUS times that you have failed to acknowledge, Marius himself (he is a mod here in case you don't know) has acknowledged that Tomb Lord is on their list of champions to fix.  So, if he is so amazing, why did Marius make it clear that the top two on that list is Astralith and Tomb Lord???

The problem in arena is not just that he is situational either.  It's that the circumstances for both teams is VERY situational.  Against some teams in arena, yes, he can be an absolute beast when combined with glass cannons.  However, since he is so situational, you have to pick and choose who you will battle VERY selectively.

As I have already said numerous times, you have not played with him and are looking at it from the outside without personal experience.  I mean really think about it Player J - I know how to use ALL my other champions properly, yet for some odd reason, I don't know how to with Tomb Lord?  Player J, it's not rocket science.  I know because I know rocket science - I was a physics major.  And like I said, I was a record-breaking warlock in WoW for years.  So, you can save your time in trying to accuse me of not knowing how to use him properly.  It's simple - combine him with burst to burn down the enemy.  He is used in place of a healer, as you want all your champions to take advantage of his debuffs.  It's quite simple, but no matter how much you try to over-complicate it Player J, he sucks, Plarium knows he sucks, and nothing you say is going to convince them or myself otherwise.  Again, I have the experience, and with multiple different team combinations.  He just isn't up to par with other legendaries.  He isn't even up to par with epics.  He is on par with the usefulness of a rare.  That's it, and not a top-tier rare even.

Tomb Lord role in an Arena Offense Burst Team is to place Def Down.

The cool down + 5 turns afterward are irrelevant.

Arena Offense Burst teams average 2 turns max.

The fight goes as the following:

1- Turn Meter/Speed Buff

2- Increase Atk Buff

3- Decrease Enemy Defense <—— Tomb Lord Spot

4- AOE Damage Dealer

All of the opponents hero’s should be dead or at least half of the opponent team should be dead.

If Tomb Lord Debuff lands, Tomb Lord mission in the fight was successful.

Tomb Lord role in the fight afterward is irrelevant.

You are 100% right I refuse to acknowledge Plarium staffs members opinions in relation to hero’s.

In addition, I know who Marius is!

Marius is the guy who removed my forum post in the Pain Killer thread.

Marius is the guy who said Pain Killer was broken and needed rework.

Marius is the guy who said “Pain Killer” isn’t a Dedicated Healer even though her name is named after a medicine which cures pain.

This is the guy, you are trying to convince me of that is supposed to know Tomb Lord is bad?

Good Luck!

I don’t even think Marius, Raids.

Why should I listen to his opinions on what hero’s he thinks are bad & good?

God said:

As far as your comparisons Player J:

Warmaiden - Her A2 is FAR better than Tomb Lord's A2.  She hits MUCH harder than he does, even at level 50 (which is the max I brought her to).  Her A1 also hits MUCH harder than his A1.  So sure, his debuffs CAN be better than hers, assuming they stick on the enemy.  However, she continues to be useful after, while he doesn't.  And you again forgot that TM down from Tomb Lord is worthless, since none of the enemy SHOULD be below 50% by the time he casts it.  If they are, you are already at a disadvantage.  So, you are now trying to make up make believe advantages for Tomb Lord just to make a pseudo-argument?  Both I and two others already mentioned the issue with his TM condition (less than 50% HP).

Spider - Are you seriously trying to say Tomb Lord is better than Spider?  Seriously???  Spider can remove/reduce buffs on the opponent, something EXTREMELY valuable in almost every encounter.  And on top of that, he also debuffs with his A2 WHILE doing damage WHILE removing buffs!!!  I would MUCH rather have Spider than Tomb Lord!

And I can certainly compare attack and HP champions to Tomb Lord in regards to usefulness.  Just because one is an attacker and another is a debuffer, doesn't change the fact that they both have their own separate usefulness in the game.  Tomb Lord's just isn't that great.  He is WAY too much of a niche, and as stated countless times by both me and multiple other people, his skills contradict one another in terms of conditions.

Regardless, go ahead and keep believing Tomb Lord is amazing.  I hope you get him one day, I truly do. Then, feel free to PM with with a "you were right."  I'll be waiting. ;)

I hope I get Tomb Lord as well.

Tomb Lord would be fantastic!

I would use Tomb Lord for my Arena Defense Team.

Leader: Tomb Lord MEGA DEF AURA 42%

• 2 Immortal Gears
  
• 4 Defensive Gears
• HP % Gloves
• Def % Chest
• Speed Shoes

• HP Ring
  
• DEF Amulet 
• ACC Banner

All Sub-Stats:

• ATK %
  
• DEF %
• HP %
• SPD

• Tier 6 - Bulwark 
• Tier 5 - Selfless Defender 
• Tier 5 - Cycle of Revenge
• Tier 5 - Master Hex

A3 Skill - Attack Down + Defense Down last 2 turns, maybe 3 with Master Hex.

A3 Skill - Cool Down 5

Will only have 2-3 turns it isn’t up!

Ooooooooooooooo It’s so Freaking Good!

Tomb Lord is a Monster.

Lol, for your defense team?  Now I KNOW you're trolling.  No one in their right mind would have a target like Tomb Lord on defense.  Anyone with Spirithost or similar anti-debuff champion would go after you for an easy win.  They would completely ignore Tomb Lord, knowing he is no threat at all, burn the other champions down, and then take turns having their way with Tomb Lord.  Hell, when I see Tomb Lord on a team, I get excited about an easy win myself, lol.  I lock his skills down with Aothar or Deathless, burn the rest of the team, then we gang bang him over the corpses of his dead teammates. :P

But anyway, I seriously do hope you get him.  Even though I am 100% certain you will be disappointed initially, they are going to buff him one day, assuming they ever actually get around to that "list" Marius said they have there.  Just because of how badly you seem to want him and are excited about him, I really do hope you get him, lol.  If you do though, just be patient, they really have said they are going to fix him eventually.

I hope the same for people with Astralith.  I feel bad for players who have legendaries that aren't very viable.  I would love to eventually encounter a buffed Astralith that would pose a threat to me in arena.

Just chiming in on this one - I don't think any champion should have an answer to everything. If one did, it surely would be OP. Creating champion teams that can get close to this is fine with me, as this has the player figure out synergies and ways to get around potential threats, as well as requires players to either pay tons of money or really get lucky with their champion pulls as well as item drops.

That's my two cents to your ongoing discussion ;)

God said:

Lol, for your defense team?  Now I KNOW you're trolling.  No one in their right mind would have a target like Tomb Lord on defense.  Anyone with Spirithost or similar anti-debuff champion would go after you for an easy win.  They would completely ignore Tomb Lord, knowing he is no threat at all, burn the other champions down, and then take turns having their way with Tomb Lord.  Hell, when I see Tomb Lord on a team, I get excited about an easy win myself, lol.  I lock his skills down with Aothar or Deathless, burn the rest of the team, then we gang bang him over the corpses of his dead teammates. :P

But anyway, I seriously do hope you get him.  Even though I am 100% certain you will be disappointed initially, they are going to buff him one day, assuming they ever actually get around to that "list" Marius said they have there.  Just because of how badly you seem to want him and are excited about him, I really do hope you get him, lol.  If you do though, just be patient, they really have said they are going to fix him eventually.

I hope the same for people with Astralith.  I feel bad for players who have legendaries that aren't very viable.  I would love to eventually encounter a buffed Astralith that would pose a threat to me in arena.

Oh, and let me ask you... when people have Spirithost (which since she can be farmed who doesn't), Bad-el-Kazar, or some other anti-debuff champion, and they plan to make your Tomb Lord worthless with that champion, how do you plan to configure your defense to prevent that from happening?  After all, Spirithost and Bad-el-Kazar is just two of MANY champions that can eliminate Tomb Lord as a threat.  So, what do you plan to set up to counter the anti-debuffers in your hypothetical defense team?

On the contrary, I believe it is you who are trolling!

I am an expert gamer 20+ years of gaming experience, second generation gamer.

I know the sneaky underhanded tactics that go on in games like this!

The “Cry Wolf - Rebalance Strategy” I know it far to well.

You are not pulling the wool over my eyes!

“Cry Wolf - Rebalance Strategy” - goes as followed:

Everyone say Bad-El-Kazar is a terrible hero.

Everyone down votes BEK to 1 Star.

Than everyone tries to trick the gullible Developers to buff him!

Your strategy isn’t going to work on Bad-El-Kazar or Tomb Lord!

I’m locked on like a laser!

I see right through your tricks.

I’m not going to play along with your trolling festival!

So what if you tricked Gullible Marius?

You didn’t trick me!

I’m speaking out!

Tomb Lord is 1 of best heroes in the game.

• Best Aura in the game.
  

Have you ever stopped to actually process why I say Tomb Lord is the Master of Defense?


Tomb Lord Aura is 42% Defense in Arena only.

All heroes in this game have 6 Equipment pieces + 3 Accessories pieces, but not Tomb Lord!

Tomb Lord has 7 Equipment pieces + 3 Accessories pieces.

If you was to look at a screen shot of Tomb Lord, you would say I only “see 6 Equipment slots”

How does he have 7?

Well you see Tomb Lord is 42% Defense Buff.

42% Defense Buff is the equivalent to a 4 star Chest Plate maxed out +16.

This hero’s Aura is giving him another Equipment piece!

So when you tell me I should be worried about Spirit Host or being attacked!

It makes me giggle!

Do your worst!

Debuff remover! 

Speed Aura user!

Go ahead!

Scientist Fact: Science have discovered wind shears are extremely strong in high elevations of Mountain tops!

Guess What?

How many times have you seen Wind blowing away a mountain? Never!

I’m Turn Tomb Lord into a mountain.

He is going to have so much health & defense!

OMG! You are going to lose in 50 min fight!

I’m chip you down lowly with Tomb Lord’s Weak 1,000 Attack Power.

• Best Def Down & Atk Down Skill in the game.
  

Go ahead name a place where reducing your opponents defense to deal more damage is a “Bad Thing”

Go ahead name a place where reducing your opponent attack to receive less damage is a “Bad Thing”.

The place doesn’t exist!

You want the Debuffs every where.

Tomb Lord A3 Skills is universal.

You can use the skill everywhere which means you want Tomb Lord everywhere.

I can put Regeneration Gear, Life Steal Gear, or Immortal Gear on Tomb Lord and run his A3 in Campaign.

I can put Toxic gear on Tomb Lord and run his A3 in Clan Boss.

I can put Defense gear on Tomb Lord and run his A3 in Dungeons.

I can put Speed gear on Tomb Lord and run his A3 in Arena.

The best part is Tomb Lord is Spirit Affinity.

Magic Affinity Units played by the AI are entrapped into attacking him first before any other unit.

If you make Tomb Lord into a Tank, you can Wall Up!

The first 6 star by most players in the game usually is 1 of the starters who are Magic.

The Magic Affinity becomes there strongest type.

The Magic Affinity hero’s on AI are lured into attacking Spirit because it gives them Affinity Advantage which is normally a good thing.

Unless, you have an opponent who deliberately is aware of the above information.

Than seeks to use the information against you to create a situation where you lose!

It’s a valid strategy and if you auto fight with no care.

You can fall victim to a cleverly designed Arena set up.

Player J, you really need to get a hobby other than trolling.  People come onto these forums looking for help.  It's trolls like you that misinform them and mislead them.

If I were a mod, you'd be banned at this point, as trolls are just a waste of life.

Thankfully, if people do enough research online and through searches, they can clearly see that my information is consistent with other posts, and yours is just nonsensical ranting just to troll. 

Regardless, say whatever you want from here on out troll.  I'm done wasting my time with you.  Get a real hobby...

Tomb Lord fully upgraded and linked with the right champions is beyond Op. People don't realise his potential. My team 170 power can get wiped by 89 power teams. 

i think tomb lord has amazing 3rd skill

in my opinion, they should change his 1st and 2nd skill to scale of his atk AND hp, also i think i would be nice for him, if his 2nd skill had the 70%chance (100% maxed) to land poison on the target AND THEN as a bonus, if he kills anyone, he would have the chance to place the poison on others

edit: for the buffs on others ... well, there was 1, but it was nothing significant, mainly damage adjustments