Marius said:

JandraM said:

this shows me that you don't really understand why people are upset... if you play games from other companies you would know that you get your ressources back if such drastic changes happen. 

Not necessarily, no. Balance changes are the norm in competitive multiplayer games, compensation for them is not something that happens often.

I don't play a lot of games but for example in Hearthstone if a card gets nerfed players are given 2 weeks to disenchant the card and receive full cost back ( as opposed to 1/4th that you get normally ).

I do understand that nerfs on steelbowyer have to be done. 

Even against my gut feelings about that matter, I started investing tomes into her. I can only imagine, that it won't be an easy task for you, to program some sort of reset for the champ, or even compensation for players that invested tomes into her. 

In my opinion, this never should have happened. Testing a new champion in all major aspects of gameplay should be this easy for developers, that a lvl40 bowyer with above average artifacts and maxed on skills would have raised red flags immediately. That being said, there only seem to be two possible things that could have happened. 

You either didn't test this champion enough, before releasing it, 

or you released it intentionally in this broken state. Make it even cheap to acquire for anybody, so that those people in heavy need of this strong champion will start spending resources immediately. Have the nerfhammer fall to have those players again in need of new resources.

In both cases, all the players that invested in her will pay harshly for the mistakes you did, or you will leave us with more than sad thoughts and feelings. Doubts, if we just became victims of a very calculated economics scheme.

I don't want to think this bad of Plarium or the game, I love your game. I have a feeling, that a lot of players will feel the same way. If you can't come up with a solution to compensate us for spent tomes, reset bowyer and maybe compensate the lost rank ups with some chickens, then a lot of us will feel like being scammed, intentionally.

gejzer901 said:

Nice, delete even more replays...That fore sure will make people more happy.

"Freedom of speech"  HA

I will quote myself again, specifically for you.

Marius said:

Hello, everyone.

Getting to you a bit late as the post was made literally in the middle of the night. Firstly, I will remind everyone to follow the forum rules, no matter the frustration. I had to delete several posts and two players were temp-banned. I understand being annoyed, constructive criticism is welcome, but severe infractions of the code of conduct will result in appropriate penalties. If you are uncertain about your post, check the Rules.

Freedom is not the same as permissiveness. So breaking the rules will have consequences. 

Shortmeister said:

I don't play a lot of games but for example in Hearthstone if a card gets nerfed players are given 2 weeks to disenchant the card and receive full cost back ( as opposed to 1/4th that you get normally ).

Hearthstone is probably the most common examples supporters of this idea bring up indeed. There was another gave mentioned, though I can't quite remember the name of it right now. At the same time, Summoners War, Galaxy of Heroes, numerous other games don't do that - at least when I was playing. Unfortunately, while I can see the merit in this idea, it also sets the precedent that could easily lead to unjustified calls for compensation even when "nerfs" are small and insignificant. 

Skimi said:

You either didn't test this champion enough, before releasing it, or you released it intentionally in this broken state. Make it even cheap to acquire for anybody, so that those people in heavy need of this strong champion will start spending resources immediately. Have the nerfhammer fall to have those players again in need of new resources. 
tomes, reset bowyer and maybe compensate the lost rank ups with some chickens, then a lot of us will feel like being scammed, intentionally.

My take on this as a paying player is that balancing is a natural part of how the flow usually goes in this type of games and everything is subject to change as per the terms of contract. That is perfectly fine. 

However, if money is paid for the product (books) and you have bought them solely to boost a specific character that is going to get nerfed due to the balancing changes you are entitled to the refund of these books or money paid. When money is involved in the process there is a level of protection we all enjoy. 

You are not entitled to any reimbursement with regards to any resources used to level your hero or ascending  him. Unless you bought the chickens. 

Paying cutomers may ask for certain remedies in this case.

Marius said:

Kin Ookami said:

Hey Marius, not presuming to tell you how to do your job, but honestly, the next post you make in here should really mention reimbursment/compensation plans from the developers (should ideally happen alongside the bowyer rework) 

I am not going to promise something that I was not told about. 

On top of that neither you nor I know exactly what Steel Bowyer will be like after the changes. As I've mentioned in my original post, we want to keep her a viable Champion. 

Not expecting a promise of any kind, all I meant was at the same time you tell us about the change (btw, she wont be better else the devs wouldnt be changing anything so quickly), give the player base a carrot as well as the nerfed stick.

Appreciate you are passing messages across from the devs, but maybe let them know that certain statements will miff the players (plus make your day an unenjoyable one)

Not aimed at yourself Marius, just a general observation, but any character change should result in reimburstment/skill resets. The whole game is a long journey for better stuff, tough to take when the apple seed you plant & nurture, turns out to be a pear tree.

Marius,

I posted a similar request in the new Suggestion thread, but I’m not sure if you’re responding to posts there. 

I think that a lot of players are worried about spending time, energy, tomes, etc., in the best rares, at this point, because of the recent nerfs to PK and SB. 

Could you confirm whether the devs are considering merging other strong rares— most importantly, Apothecary, Coldheart, and Bellower?

Marius said:

Hearthstone is probably the most common examples supporters of this idea bring up indeed. There was another gave mentioned, though I can't quite remember the name of it right now. At the same time, Summoners War, Galaxy of Heroes, numerous other games don't do that - at least when I was playing. Unfortunately, while I can see the merit in this idea, it also sets the precedent that could easily lead to unjustified calls for compensation even when "nerfs" are small and insignificant. 

Well, compensation is not appropriate I agree but people are not asking to receive copies of what they'd invested and keep the hero upgraded but merely to have an option of getting back the resources invested and resetting champion's upgrades.

I really think it is fair to offer such an option. When you order something with certain specifications but the supplier does not provide them, you definitely should be given an option to return the product. Same is with champs - people decide to invest in those based on the current description.

Marius,

Please tell devs that "balancing" in gatchas should exclusively be to buff weak champs (which still hasn't been done yet in this game), never to nerf strong ones in gatcha games. There's so much investment done in champs and people potentially spend money to either get a certain champ and/or invest in them. 

I have 2 accounts that uses steel bowyer as main for everything and noticed that the low level w/ skill not maxed yet deals more damage on clan boss compare to my main account w/ maxed skill and better stats. funny!

but yeah! totally agree w/ all the people complaining. give us the tome back at least! we've spent months and money on those tomes!

Ah yes, clearly, I am just a Cog in a Soulless Corporate Machine ;) 

God said:

 Plarium has NO respect for its players at all...

I thought this is the first thing what you learn about plarium after first week of playing their games and lurking through forum...

...but Thx mr obvious.

One thing i'd like to talk about a bit is Nerfs VS Buffs.

The human mind is prone to Loss Aversion. Loss aversion theory states that Losses feel 2 times as bad as gains. In terms of games that basically means that a nerf feels a lot worse than a buff feels good.

Blizzard struggled with this for a while during periods of World of warcraft, where nerfs would have to be dished out slowly and spaced out, so the losses of classes wouldn't overtake the gains they got in other fields.

In terms of this game, a nerf to a character that you've invested a lot in is going to feel really bad, and when its presented with no upside at all, its even worse. That simply makes the person feel cheated and betrayed.

Don't get me wrong, i understand that characters need to be brought in line. But when announcing nerfs to a character that people like and not giving anything possitive in return, it feels really bad.

I'd recommend that a nerf to her at least should keep her viable, possibly in line with other champions with %hp attacks on clan boss(since thats what she will be used for). For every step she falls bellow coldheart, its just going to feel that much worse for everyone who invested in her, especially if they don't get the chance to undo after they invested in a character they liked.

It injures trust between the player and the company, and if im to be quite honest, seems kind of like a scam. Now im not saying its intentional, not at all. But if she does become useless or worse than other options, you've basically taken away a lot of resources from people on a bait and switch. People don't like that generally, and it most definetly does not increase the trust.

Anyhow, sorry for the long rant. These things bother me since i work on games myself, and constantly thing about these things.

It's always fun wasting time, money, and resources into beta testing. I have only been paying errr... I mean playing for over a week now. I found out SB is getting nerfed and pulled my first legendary Richtoff The Useless in the same day. It has not been a good day.

Could you confirm whether the devs are considering merging other strong rares— most importantly, Apothecary, Coldheart, and Bellower?

Thanks!

Hi. 

1. Love this game, love playing it and hope too for a long time. 

2. Now I'm not so sure. You just released Steel Bowyer and of course I saw the potential like everyone else and started investing and she is a great and much needed addition to my clan boss team. Very much feeling like this is an intentional money making back handed scheme of Plarium. My trust in you is diminishing fast. 

3. WHY DO YOU NOT RELEASE THESE NOTES/NEWS IN GAME?? I by chance was lucky enough because I am active in game chats that someone had read the notes here and shared what they learned. Why do you not release this very important news on a new champion IN GAME SO THAT EVERYONE WHO PLAYS WILL SEE IT. This makes me think and feel that you are doing this kind of stuff on purpose to make money and nothing else. Trust diminishing even further. How hard would it be for you guys to release notes like this in game? Why don't you. 

4. Having invested in Steel Bowyer I would like to makes some notes on her performance and give feedback as to how I personally think she could be rebalanced. In Clan Boss she's a beast no doubt. It's just her A3 that does sick dmg but in comparison to others! She does half to a third of the dmg my Juliana does who is one of the best cb heroes. My outlaw monk easily does half the dmg she does and he's an uncommon. he's never mentioned for nerfing? He's an uncommon that outperforms many rares epics and legendaries in clan boss because of his specific skills. Why don't you rebalance him?? If steel bowyer is so out of balance!.That's not out of balance in my mind. Juliana does better than a lot of legendaries in clan boss because she has specific skills that work well but she doesn't perform so well elsewhere. Steel Bowyer elsewhere is no better than other rares. I have used her in campaign, arena and dungeons. She is just as balanced as my other rares in these areas. My berserker does more damage than her. My maxed elhain still easily outperforms her. Galek has more use elsewhere than my steel bowyer. Outside of clan boss she is equal too and less than my other rares that I have invested in. So in my mind she actually doesn't need a massive rebalance. I think bringing her A3 from 3x to 2x would be very much a decent rebalance. Even that would be a nasty hit. I'm fact I don't think she should be rebalanced at all. She's very role specific and I don't think she is a massive game changer. 

4. I really appreciate the work and effort Plarium puts in to this game and the difficulty in making game balanced allround but this kind of messy/release and Nerf doesn't seem very player focused but seems more like a backhanded money making scheme that's breaking trust in your player base and ultimately will make this game fail. If I see this kind of thing happen again I will stop playing. 

5. I think you seriously need to consider adding in a compensation ability when you Nerf champions. Timelimited and only for those who have invested. This will go a long way to building trust and giving players options to reinvest if needed. 

6. I really hope you hear what your players are saying and show us you care by making some of these improvements in game mostly RELEASE THESE NOTES IN GAME, STOP RELEASING OP RARES THEN NERFING THEM, BUFF SOME OF THE LEGENDARIES AND RARES YOU KEEP PROMISING, AND RELEASE THESE NOTES AND NEWS IN GAME PLEASE!! 

8. I am trying to give you guys decent feedback and it certainly echoes the voices of many players here. I am trying to do it nicely but you guys really don't do yourselves any favours when it comes to working with and communicating with your players and building trust and appreciation on many levels. I think that's what will ultimately make or break this game.