TheElitePhantom said:

KarlXII said:

I have just one question, fighting PP:s in the long term!

Example:

You fight 200 PP:s in a row and winning all time

Your quest PP stays at level 90

You mix fighting offensive and defensive PP:s, even though your main goal is fighting one of them.

You always Attack/Defend with the most suitable troop type

So the question is. If I hit the last one (200) at level 86 and it will bring me a (the) big reward. Will that gain me more than I have invested, or at least break even ?

Again, it depends on when you hit the final position. It might be better to hit it as your 190th, or it might be better as your 210th. Your mileage may vary from profiting to getting a loss.

You must be a Politician .... Im just making a theoretical statement! The example above describes that I GOT THE BIG REWARD AT LEVEL 86 as last PP! Its simple as that. And above every investment caps between PP1 ->PP200 I will be near the big one, either way of strategy!
You tell me, isnt that the way the reward system works?

Actually...

I now have the feeling nothing have changed.

I invite you to invetigate on your side and comparte figures.

Please check here :

http://forum.plarium.com/en/sparta-war-of-empires/game-discussion/topics/persian-positions--yes--again----/

If theory #2 is right, you just get down payment on the real payout when you finish a position bfore having paid the bank back. Else the payout will drop when you have invested the usual amount based on your rpevious big payout, as usual.

That is, if theory #2 is the correct one, of course. But what I invested over 7 positions, my previous payout and the new one are too close to one another for being a coincidence...

Of course, it has to be reproduced several times to be proved.

But if I'm right, then Plarium has been mainly applying small cosmetic changes rather than big upheavals. Think about the troops dismiss feature that was actually affecting only your own troops guarding our own walls and no oher... Or the fortifications bonus that has always been there and was only undisclosed... Actually, most of the so-called recent changes were only information disclosure, for some of them.

The real questionable changes are the undocumented farms production 1/3 boost that came out of nowhere and the 100 points limit for Persian positions tournaments. Even the 30% troops that didn't even fight persians feature has been removed to our common request.

There may be a communication problem, but nothing to justify such riots... :p

Note that it comes from the fact those game mechanisms were kept a secret on purpose to give the game a more intuitive feeling, and it was up to players to guess how they worked. Persians are now played with spreadsheets, which could sound a bit weird for ancient Greece... :D

It comes from the fact people prefer to know where they are going than relying on chance...

However, I did check the "I hit positions and I don't care" method (if it can be called a method ^^) and it works just as well, so either you do the maths or you don't care, it'll work the same in the end.

Actually, some players I know have been going on playing Persians instead of stopping completely and ranting on the forum... And have quietly grown up their army. ;)

I wrote to Plarium and told them that I was un happy with the new system. That I am a customer and what is the #1 thing you have to do when you run a business is to have happy customer, unhappy customer tell potential customers their horror stories and they don't get new customers. They wrote me back and said that I was paid back in RESOURCES the amount in Resources I lost and they showed me all the wins and loses that I had. They were close about 90% here is the problem with the way I was playing the game. 

DO NOT USE LIGHTS. for example if I take a PP with 200 javs that is 24,000 in resources so they pay me back a 1 - Agema Horsman 24,000 in resources, the problem is I used 3800 power points 200Jav x 19power points. The Agema horseman is only worth 1680 powerpoints. So you see that you end up with less as you are calculating your wins and losses with power points not resources. So you end up with 50% power points gone when using lights.

So if you take a PP with high level men  for example  100 Agema  Horseman thats 2,400,000 in resource they will pay you back 2,400,000 in resources as they told me in writing.

JackTheRipper said:

DO NOT USE LIGHTS. for example if I take a PP with 200 javs that is 24,000 in resources so they pay me back a 1 - Agema Horsman 24,000 in resources, the problem is I used 3800 power points 200Jav x 19power points. The Agema horseman is only worth 1680 powerpoints. So you see that you end up with less as you are calculating your wins and losses with power points not resources. So you end up with 50% power points gone when using lights.

Hello Archon,

We really don't care about power points here.

If you mean you need more light infantry to be able to beat a position, then it's actually fine, as it means you're investing more resources, so you'll get your payout sooner, and that's exactly what Persian positions are all about.

The truth is your goal in the game is to get a meaningful army, so you need only cavalry and phalanx.

All the rest is crap, perfect to sacrifice to persians.

Of course, you don't really need to optimize grain consumption anymore, so you could now upkeep millions of light infantry without starving and dismissing, but let's get serious : nbuilding enough hoplites (for instance) to compare to the same power as, say, 10 000 Agemas, would obviously mean you would have to build 280 000 of them.

I can hardly build 2 000 of them in one week, so building 280 000 would take 2 years and 8 months !

So I'm sorry, but your statement is just absurd, and I wouldn't obviously advise anybody to follow it.

Gettng around 6 000 Agemas and 4 000 macedonians only took me roughly 6-8 months, the hardest being to get to a level enabling to gather enough resources through raids to build light and heavy infantry almost all day long, so I can get enough fodder to send to Persians.

Since tournaments only give phalanx, all my cavalry obviously comes from Persians. Time and efforts needed to get them can't compare with the 2 years and 8 months, not even talking about the ridiculous amounts of resources, that would be necessary to get the same power with just hoplites.

The truth is every superior category of units is 3 to 4 times more powerful than its lower category equivalent, yet eating only 1 grain per hour more (without improvement), while its increase in cost and building time is proportional to the power increase.

This means two things :

1) Building 10 000 of them, other than a few complementary ones (to keep your building queues busy anyway), would be as foolish as building 228 000 light infantry units anyway, and

2) If you want them, don't build them : earn then by swapping those useless infantry units to Persians. ;)

You didn't get what I said.

I do care about power in PVP combat.

I don't care about power in Persians positions, as all I want to do is losing as much equivalent resources as possible so I get a huge payout in real troops instead.

That's the reason why Promachoi are better than Sarissophoroi to lose in Persian positions, for  instance : they're worth more resources, so you invest more faster. The other reason is you get huge batches of them out of tournaments, so you can easily have lots of them.

And I never said anything about killing Agemas. I wrote 1 Agema had the same combat power as 28 Hoplites, that's all I said. I actually wrote about Agemas killing others, not being killed ! That's their job ! ;)

Opposing offense infantry to Agemas is ridiculous anyway as it NEVER happens. People defend with mounted Peltasts, Thuerophoroi and Trojan Thorakitai, NEVER with Agemas !!!

Agemas are used to attack only, period.

Now if you want to do stupid comparisons, let's compare 1 (attacking, of course) Agema to the necessary number of (obviously defending) Javelineers to match them.

There it's not 1 for 28 (Hoplites attack power is 60, Agemas attack power is 1680, without upgrades), but 1 for 168...

Plus if you would oppose 1 Agema to 167 Javelineers, the defender would lose 84 units and lose he battle, while the attacker would lose nothing (0.4994 rounded down to 0) and win the battle...

So to match 10 000 Agemas, you would need to defend with 1 680 000 Javelineers...

Just for fun, I calculated the time it would take to build them : 9 years, 7 months and 5 days ! LOL

ThatBloke said:

You didn't get what I said.

*SNIP*

I' m sure you ThatBloke didn't understood what Jacktheripper said; 

He said; when you attack with 1 agema and he would defend with 100 jav's that you as attacker would loose 

Hundigo said:

ThatBloke said:

You didn't get what I said.

*SNIP*

I' m sure you ThatBloke didn't understood what Jacktheripper said; 

He said; when you attack with 1 agema and he would defend with 100 jav's that you as attacker would loose 

Well, it takes 168 javelineers to resist 1 Agema horseman.

Against 100 javelineers, the Agema would win the battle.

Now it also depends on the target location passive defense : if it's a city and it has good fortifications, those 100 javs can easily count as 168 anyway. But let's calculate without taking thse in accoun for now (if they're defending a colony, for instance).

Let's see if the attacker would actually lose his horse (probably, but it has to be checked ^^)

The Agema represents 62.686% of the forces pressent in the battle. This is the damage ratio that will be inflicted to the javelineers, meaning 63 will die (62.686 is rounded up to 63)

The javelineers represent 37.314% of the forces and will inflict this damage ratio to the Agema.

Unfortunately for the defender, 0.37314 will be rounded down to 0, so the attacker will lose nothing. :p

Of course, nobody ever sends only one Agema, so this is a theorical calculation. If the attacker sends 2 against 200 javs, he'll lose 1 (

0.74327 rounded up to 1), same as if he sends 3 or 4 (he'll start losing 2 from 5 Agemas sent), etc.

You example is interesting as it alo shows how rounded down numbers on a mixed force conatining small qquantities of each kind of units can actually dramatically decrease your losses. However, it also reduces their efficiency, as only the units present in majority will be used to calculate the battle results, then the ratios will be applied to all of the units.

Anyway, it mostly shows two important points I've ben insisting about :

- Units are stongly secialized (you must use offense to attack and defense to defend)

- Every higher category of units has a better efficiency (especially in grain consumption and building time) than the lower ones (you can still get almost the same power with approximtely the same amount of resources by building either more weaker units or less stronger ones).

Javs:

build time: 3m (no academy)  upgrade 20/20, hit points 29.1 (elixirs)

resources cost= 120 per unit, build in 24 hrs 480 units

total resources cost= 57600

total hit points= 13968

cost per hit point= 4.123

Thureos:

build time: 44m (full academy) upgrade 20/20, hit points 576 (elixirs)

resources cost= 5000 per unit, build in 24 hrs 32.7 units

total resources cost= 163500

total hit points= 18835

cost per hit point= 5.622

Thureos hit points of 18835- Javs hit points of 13968= 4915 hit points

Net cost of the extra 4915 hit points is 105900 in resources at 21.546 per hit point.

Hmm.. there is something rotten in the Kingdom of Sparta.. lol

Getting more high level troops was a better choice when too many troops could dismiss in case you lacked grain.

Of course, both dismissing removal and artificial farms production boost have changed the situation.

Yet, it you had to build them by yourself, producing Thureophoroi would still much faster than javelineers for the same defense power.

Of course, you can still build both ! ;)

I don't think "much faster" is  good enough considering that you have to spend ~106k extra resources for a measly ~5k extra HP.

Looks like something is wrong in the difference between Thureos and Javs and here is why; (Since I cant yet train Sarissos my calculations might be a bit off.)

Hoplites:

Build time (no academy) 8m, upgrade 20/20 91.5 HP (elixirs)

Cost=520 PU build in 24 hrs 180 units

Total cost= 93600

Total HP= 16470

Cost per HP= 5.683

Sarissos:

Build time (full academy) 79m, upgrade 20/20 1112.6 HP (no elixirs)

Cost= 7823 PU build in 24 hrs 18.2 units

Total cost= 142590 Total HP= 20281

Cost per HP= 7.030

Sarissos cost of 142590 - Hoplite cost of 93600= 48990

Sarissos HP of 20281 -  Hoplite HP of 16470 = 3811

For  ~49k extra cost you get 3811 HP more  at 12.854 per HP

There may actually be another criteria to take in account : each unit's defense capacity against various attackers.

Building phalanx or cavalery will litteralery bust defending infantry.

On the other hand, infantry will slaughter defending cavalry, while the two defending Greek phalanx units have different defense specialties against various kinds of offense (thats why I combine both in pantheons).

Every kind of unit has its strong and weak points, and they're complementary.

A balanced army should probably be mixed, especially in defense. :)

i tried to do persian positions but lost all my good troops.

is there is any way or strategy to get good rewards from persian positions?

its killing my game and building phax and cav not worth it.

i tried to do persian positions but lost all my good troops.

is there is any way or strategy to get good rewards from persian positions?

its killing my game and building phax and cav not worth it.

so if anyone know strategy let me know plz

hi , i am almost to 5% of strength left on troops as i am huge persia addict....so all i can figure out is yes the remaining 60-70% that you loose are added up to your bank and partial payout we receive is deducted from original bank value....all you need to be is patient ...

i am hitting level 154 position for now ...for balanced (offnc+deffnc)reward i prefer hitting deffnc position whenever i see my bank is done as offnc position almost provide offnc units everytime ....for now my bank is too high so it will take time :P.

wish you all luck and be patient for your rare big reward :).

ghostrider

Hi guys. I happened to be involved in running 2 cities: one is mine and one belongs to another guy.

I can tell you for sure by comparison that the cities respond absolutely differently to the SAME approaches.

There are countless examples of irregularities that you would find out about by comparison.

When I first got involved with the second city, it was lvl 27, while my own city was lvl 65. The second one had all manufacturing buildings lvl2-3 and only light infantry barrack. To my amazement, it was much easier to develop the small city. Right now it is lvl 84 vs my main city lvl87. It has larder army, it has more frequent and larger PP payouts. As for the lvl 87, it took 4-6 months between large payouts. And I do pretty much of PP – 115 mil points

After they changed the game and started returning 30% of the potential payout prematurely. I adjusted my computation and started deducting the partial payout from my “investments”. Nothing worked. Even when the investment topped 150% of the last large payout – the new ones were miserable. Could be 66 Promachos after hitting lvl160 PP. After that, I sometimes go all-in and hit another 160 lv – with a similar result. Plarium would make sure that my partial payouts are mostly cavalry and most of all Xerexes positions are heavily skewed towards cavalry (or my phalanx vs the Xerxes phalanx), which makes it impossible to accumulate the troops to beat the top PP in less than 6 months. That is why (and because I need to produce “pieces” for my General) I would attack a lower lower position – and that is when Plarium allows a payout – much smaller than I was entitled during the several previous top PP attacks

One of the admins admitted that there is no fair rule in providing payouts and Palarium would “delay” it as long as it chooses, with no available timeframe. And boy, he was so right – maybe his honesty cost him the job. Every time I would ask the Parium staffers as to how to be able to catch up with their silent “changes”, they would hind behind the “proprietary”. In other words, in this “bank”, we are not guaranteed even that our “investment” comes back.. Last time I discussed the issue with an Admin a person called Kakos started filibustering as if he was on Palrium payroll . 

The only rational explanation would be the “divine intervention” on the Plarium part- in a way the Architect from the movie “Matrix” had been re-writing programs. I can trace it to me refusing to spend even a penny, after the Plarium refused to take any responsibility for their “visual bugs” that cost me up to 4 raids for resources per day. I was persistent and vocal. That probably made me an unwanted player and subjected to harmful treatment. The point seems to be: either to force me to spend money or leave the game and then my “bad influence” on the sheep would end.

Hi guys. I happened to be involved in running 2 cities: one is mine and one belongs to another guy.

I can tell you for sure by comparison that the cities respond absolutely differently to the SAME approaches.

There are countless examples of irregularities that you would find out about by comparison.

When I first got involved with the second city, it was lvl 27, while my own city was lvl 65. The second one had all manufacturing buildings lvl2-3 and only light infantry barrack. To my amazement, it was much easier to develop the small city. Right now it is lvl 84 vs my main city lvl87. It has larder army, it has more frequent and larger PP payouts. As for the lvl 87, it took 4-6 months between large payouts. And I do pretty much of PP – 115 mil points

After they changed the game and started returning 30% of the potential payout prematurely. I adjusted my computation and started deducting the partial payout from my “investments”. Nothing worked. Even when the investment topped 150% of the last large payout – the new ones were miserable. Could be 66 Promachos after hitting lvl160 PP. After that, I sometimes go all-in and hit another 160 lv – with a similar result. Plarium would make sure that my partial payouts are mostly cavalry and most of all Xerexes positions are heavily skewed towards cavalry (or my phalanx vs the Xerxes phalanx), which makes it impossible to accumulate the troops to beat the top PP in less than 6 months. That is why (and because I need to produce “pieces” for my General) I would attack a lower lower position – and that is when Plarium allows a payout – much smaller than I was entitled during the several previous top PP attacks

One of the admins admitted that there is no fair rule in providing payouts and Palarium would “delay” it as long as it chooses, with no available timeframe. And boy, he was so right – maybe his honesty cost him the job. Every time I would ask the Parium staffers as to how to be able to catch up with their silent “changes”, they would hind behind the “proprietary”. In other words, in this “bank”, we are not guaranteed even that our “investment” comes back.. Last time I discussed the issue with an Admin a person called Kakos started filibustering as if he was on Palrium payroll . 

The only rational explanation would be the “divine intervention” on the Plarium part- in a way the Architect from the movie “Matrix” had been re-writing programs. I can trace it to me refusing to spend even a penny, after the Plarium refused to take any responsibility for their “visual bugs” that cost me up to 4 raids for resources per day. I was persistent and vocal. That probably made me an unwanted player and subjected to harmful treatment. The point seems to be: either to force me to spend money or leave the game and then my “bad influence” on the sheep would end.