Terminators Heg has a suggestion on a possible way to open communication channels to discuss this properly:

sweetpeahead said:

Terminators Heg has a suggestion on a possible way to open communication channels to discuss this properly:

Dont know if its locked but when i click on it it says i dont have the necessary permission to view this...

If locked may i kindly remind plarium we do have skype and ts3 channels set up so we do have other comm channels open wich we can utilize to coordinate actions. The suggestion to disquss it here i think was a very fair move from terminators to keep it transparent and open for all players to follow....

dxr250 said:

Ok let me give an example to explain exactly what is going on and let me clarify that the issue isnt the new building (amphitheater) or the new lvls on the agreements but the change in troops proportional values and results of battle aka especially the increase of defensive value for offensive troops wich has no point besides making this game a money trap and pointless for the smaller players try face an opponent with good strategy and skilled gameplay.

Numbers will be kept round in this as otherwise calculations would be too complex and confuse people more then they would make them understand the real issue.

example Player A with 50 mill offense, 50 mill defense and Player B with 10 mill offense , 10 mill defense. 

Player A attacks. Now we all know ( i hope) algorithm works proportional so in case that Player B pulls out his defence he is outnumbered 5 to 1. Result will be aproximatelly 80 to 85% kill for player A with about 15 to 20% loses. I dont think i need to point out that that is not the best strategy Player B could or should follow.

Now Player B desides to play a different plan. Before changes with them beeing on same lvl of agreements. No matter if it would be lvl 20 or lvl 32 as long as those new lvl's wouldnt mess with the proportions (aka increase the defense value of offensive troops etc...)

He strategizes (it is a strategy game or not???) and tryes to catch Player A offense to counterstrike it with his own. That move is not easy and lets also keep in mind Player A has allready many items to avoid that and shield himself from such a counter. (auto hider, full protection after his attack finished etc etc....) 

Now before the proportions change this would go like this:

On a mixed offense troops defense value of the offense is about 1/15 of its offensive value (dependign on how many high troops in it)

So player B hits the 50 mill offense with his 10 mill. He outnumbers his enemy 10/3,5 at best this time.so rougly 3/1. Result is this:

Player B will kill at least 35 mill of his enemy and lose about 2,5 mill. If this happens in Players A city he will get 50% of his loses back for free ( i assume all money players have infirmary max out) so about 17,5 mill and will have 15 + 17,5 = 32,5 mill offense while player B will be at about 7,5 mill offense after it. Pretty clear who won and why as even if outnumbered he played a much  better strategy and did a risky skilled move.Lets not forget if Player A plays correctly and pulls his defense player B is done. So Player A even if stronger played really bad as his moves were full of mistakes.

Lets see what happens with the new agreements ( i repeat not the lvls put the proportional changes with adding way bigger defensive value to the offensive units) 

Player B hits the 50 mill offence of Player A with his 10 mill. only now the 50 mill defend about at 1/4 of their offensive value at least. 

Player A loses the fight as the defensive value still enough to outnumber him. He probably will lose about 5,5 mill of his offence and kill about 16 to 17 mill of his enemy offense. Again if thats in Players A city he will get half of it back so result after battle is Player B is left with 4,5 mill offence and player A has 33 + 8,5 = 41,5 mill after this fight. Now Player B took a big risk , performed really good and still went out really bad from that battle while PLayer A did everything wrong and got shielded from the new changes.

Same way this whole new "idea" works on pantheon or capital wars. We all know that the strategic way to play would be to try catch the launcher of coalition strikes to them and try neutralize the offence in the city prior to launch. Now this cant really be done and even if it will result in heavy loses for the side that try's it and actually plays right in strategic manner. May i remind here that strategy is to achieve the maximum possible result by taking the minimum possible damage to your own strength. Even in real war that is how it goes.

Now plarium desides to take out the strategy part. Saying , no matter if you play strategic or smart or skilled. We deside the bigger spender will always win and you cant do anything about it. I mean allready it was far from easy to counter an opponent that was buying way more. But to make it nearly impossible to do it really puts out any strategic aspekt from this game. No skills requiered , no plan , no patience for the right moment or mistake from the enemy.... 

Now Alyona , you still dont understand what is going on or what we dont like about this new update???? Do i need to point out that every strategy game player actually wants to feel the pleasure of a good strategic plan turn out to be a success??? Do i need to point out that true gamers actually dont find it that satisfying to hammer a weak opponent but to bring in victory against a bigger one that looks for trouble???

Vodkaonice , you sure now you like the new changes???

To say it clear and loud: This is a change to shield of the bigger spender , make it impossible for a smaller player to really consider stand up to a stronger opponent and in end effect only ment to make players spend even more money on this. Like its not expencive enough allready as it is.... THIS IS NO STRATEGY GAME ANYMORE AFTER THIS. 

Also mark that if the outnumber ratio between the 2 players is bigger it gets even worse for the smaller player. At least before that he could still hope to find a way and bring in a victory against a stronger enemy that bully him.... Sure he would not whipe him out but at least he could teach him a little (painfull) lesson.... Now that is made impossible. The only way to win is to caclulate how much his enemy spent and deposit more then that to Plarium. now if thats not pay to win what is??? May i remind us all it is a game???

End effect will be all our friends and teammembers that dont spend huge amounts on this but only do moderate buys will be sooner or later chased out of the game as it will be pointless for them to try face a heavy or simply heavier spender. That is what we protest and try to act against in here. Do you really think you will make more money if only the big spenders stay on this map??? I give you my prediction... this map will soon be a sahara like place .... and when this happens it will also get way too borring for the biggest spenders too... Or do you really think they gonna enjoy pay you a few thousands every time they battle eachother over a dead map????

This money trap only works cause it is based on the sunk cost effect and i would strongly suggest you read about it if you do not know what it is...

i get your story and have to say i was to fast with jumping to my conclusion...

Vodkaonice said:

i get your story and have to say i was to fast with jumping to my conclusion...

I don't think so.. dxr250's premise is all based on the "strategy" of catching the enemy with offensive troops out and killing them..

sweetpeahead said:

Terminators Heg has a suggestion on a possible way to open communication channels to discuss this properly:

Dont know if its locked but when i click on it it says i dont have the necessary permission to view this...

If locked may i kindly remind plarium we do have skype and ts3 channels set up so we do have other comm channels open wich we can utilize to coordinate actions. The suggestion to disquss it here i think was a very fair move from terminators to keep it transparent and open for all players to follow....

So its up to you guys (plarium our hosts for our free time fun) if you want to keep it transparent and accessable for all players or if your solution is simply to hide the truth under locks and access denials.... wont really do much though. Trust me for everyone that speak here there are many that wait to see how this issue will be solved. 

Vodkaonice said:

i get your story and have to say i was to fast with jumping to my conclusion...

I don't think so.. dxr250's premise is all based on the "strategy" of catching the enemy with offensive troops out and killing them..

I don't like the update much either but that's not exactly a valid reason for not having it, methinks.

Gorgo said:

dxr250 said:

sweetpeahead said:

Terminators Heg has a suggestion on a possible way to open communication channels to discuss this properly:

Dont know if its locked but when i click on it it says i dont have the necessary permission to view this...

If locked may i kindly remind plarium we do have skype and ts3 channels set up so we do have other comm channels open wich we can utilize to coordinate actions. The suggestion to disquss it here i think was a very fair move from terminators to keep it transparent and open for all players to follow....

So its up to you guys (plarium our hosts for our free time fun) if you want to keep it transparent and accessable for all players or if your solution is simply to hide the truth under locks and access denials.... wont really do much though. Trust me for everyone that speak here there are many that wait to see how this issue will be solved. 

our beloved Plarium dont want that we talk about truth :)

No matter ,,,, we still have skype and ts3 channels.... let me just say i fully respect plarium is a business and needs to make money .... i myself put way more then would be sane for a game on this some time now.... Thank you Gorgo for a very good suggestion as a reaction to an unfair to all update issue!!! I am allready on strike from buying anything here and of course so is our team.

However i would like to strongly point out that the real value of this game is its population of players (customers) Now if i would enjoy to hunt and terrorize smaller then me players i might even be happy with these changes ( actually wouldnt as i can see it will lead in a massive player exit and kill our free time fun here as we will be forced to search another place / game to have fun with our friends and enemies )
So we actually protest and give our hosts (plarium ) a headsup before we turn our backs to it once and for all..

No objection game needs updates and we do appreciate see new stuff.... It also makes us research new ways to go about them and how to better strategize about them.  The detail in the agreements though means the end of strategic play and reaction in this.

Vodkaonice my example is about a very common and preffered strategy for a weaker though skilled player. I could go give more of them in different situations but i think it makes my point. No one complains about troops geting stronger , new things get added to the game (some like them more some less) The reaction caused by so many is about the detail in agreements wich i think i pointed out excactly in my example. The end result will be us losing our game on wich we come to spend our free time and have fun with our friends. THATS wy we also put good money on it.... The addition of more offensive power to defensive troops is also a bad idea.... Took some coordination and skills to defend a pantheon after you took it for example. now you just send both offence and defence as it dont really matter .... You see this as an increase in strategic / skilled gameplay????

The resurrected i fully agree !!

This game is also a social plattform in my point of view. I dont really mind coining up my game and i am sure even if i am not the best customer Plarium ever had i am for sure way way from the worse.... I try to point out that for me to keep throwing money on a game it needs to be fun and challenging. I am in my 40's and have a long backround of playing strategy games.... I see no point in playing something that turns into 0 strategy and 0 demand for skilled play and troop usage.

Also i dont like the smaller player has no way of even dream to counter and face a stronger opponent. And i dont appreciate see most of my friends beeing chased out of the place i come to have fun with them in my free time....

May i also point out that the game itself bases on the huge achievement of King Leonidas facing a huge persian army and managing to make a stand due to great strategic planning opposed to an opponent wich even if way supperior in force got his lesson.  Exactly because Xerxes underestimated him and his 300 ???? 

dxr250 said:

Ok let me give an example...

I've got your point now, thank you for the detailed explanation.

You're right about the part that it will be much more complicated to catch the Offense now. And if you are a skilled player who relied on this tactics, your results will become lower.

However, it also means that your Offense will be much more protected against such sudden attacks. So it works equally for both sides. 

So basically the new levels change only one strategy - hitting the Offensive Units. As it's not the main activity in the game, I don't think the new levels will become a game changer. 

You will need to adapt and figure out some new ways to smash the enemy, you will also need to change your combat calculation methods, and it will take some time to adjust.

dxr250 said:

Ok let me give an example...

I've got your point now, thank you for the detailed explanation.

You're right about the part that it will be much more complicated to catch the Offense now. And if you are a skilled player who relied on this tactics, your results will become lower.

However, it also means that your Offense will be much more protected against such sudden attacks. So it works equally for both sides. 

So basically the new levels change only one strategy - hitting the Offensive Units. As it's not the main activity in the game, I don't think the new levels will become a game changer. 

You will need to adapt and figure out some new ways to smash the enemy, you will also need to change your combat calculation methods, and it will take some time to adjust.

However, I believe in you and your skills. you did really great calculations here, and I'm sure it won't take long for you to find the best use for the new stats.

i'm sorry but that was patronising and glib . pr  gloss but not answering the concerns. we need some one much higher in the plarium management to respond . 

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:

dxr250 said:

Ok let me give an example...

I've got your point now, thank you for the detailed explanation.

You're right about the part that it will be much more complicated to catch the Offense now. And if you are a skilled player who relied on this tactics, your results will become lower.

However, it also means that your Offense will be much more protected against such sudden attacks. So it works equally for both sides. 

So basically the new levels change only one strategy - hitting the Offensive Units. As it's not the main activity in the game, I don't think the new levels will become a game changer. 

You will need to adapt and figure out some new ways to smash the enemy, you will also need to change your combat calculation methods, and it will take some time to adjust.

However, I believe in you and your skills. you did really great calculations here, and I'm sure it won't take long for you to find the best use for the new stats.

Dear Alyona!

I am supriced that after reading all that we have been taking about you get to that conclusion and reply..... With all the respect to your and anyones opinion your answer to me is a try to talk the whole issue down and put the focus off it....

The whole point of the example was not if i can adjust my calculations to the new proportions. The point is the changes take out a huge chunk of strategy out of a "strategy game" and tipp the ballance even more towards simply pay to win game...Thank you for pointing me to the aspect of the new lvl's protect my offense from sudden attacks, but... i was doing perfectly ok so far protecting it myself with fast reactions and also as a money player felt that i have more then enough items (auto hiders , full protection... etc) to do tat myself quiet efficiently ;-) there was no need to add me another shield there ....

But if you want my new calculation i addapted them allready and actually pointed them out in my example. Now its way more simple to calculate. No need for complex calculations or strategic thoughts....Player A spends 10.000 $ , Player B spends 1.000 $ on his game. No matter what Player A wins as there is no more strategic usage of troops or need for skilled gameplay. Only "strategic" option for Player B left is to deposit at least another 10.000 $ to Plarium to spice up his game and then he will be able to confront his enemy.... Very nice , congratulations !! This is the quintessence of strategy !!!!!!!!!! 

dxr250 said:

Dear Alyona! I am supriced that after reading all that we have been taking about you get to that conclusion and reply..... With all the respect to your and anyones oppinion your answer to me is a try to talk the whole issue down and put the focus off it.... The whole point of the example was not if i can adjust my calculations to the new proportions. The point is the changes take out a huge chunk of strategy out of a "strategy game" and tipp the ballance even more towards simply pay to win game...Thank you for pointing me to the aspect of the new lvl's protect my offense from sudden attacks, but... i was doing perfectly ok so far protecting it myself with fast reactions and also as a money player felt that i have more then enough items (auto hiders , full protection... etc) to do tat myself quiet efficiently ;-) there was no need to add me another shield there ....But if you want my new calculation i addapted them allready and actually pointed them out in my example. Now its way more simple to calculate. No need for complex calculations or strategic thoughts....Player A spends 10.000 $ , Player B spends 1.000 $ on his game. No matter what Player A wins as there is no more strategic usage of troops or need for skilled gameplay. Only "strategic" option for Player B left is to deposit at least another 10.000 $ to Plarium to spice up his game and then he will be able to confront his enemy.... Very nice , congratulations !! This is the quintessence of strategy !!!!!!!!!! 

100% agree

I am curious and i don`t mean disrespect with my question.... Alyona, whats your experience in Sparta? because the players i see here trying to explain the reason why this changes are a bad idea, (not only for players also for plarium).... are players that i see in top positions fighting in many tournaments weekly. So maybe if we knew the kind of player you are in Sparta, we could explain again with more detail applied to your situation and experience. Anything to help :-)

The bonuses on the last level is like permitting doping for those who can afford to bribe the officials, in this case Plarium. It removes any kind of fair play and does make it to a pay-to-win. 

It has totally demotivated me to raid anything but bot cities and I don't see me continue to play a "freemium game" where both "free" and "game" is diminishing in order to focus so blatantly obviously on stereoid addicted premium players.

This isn't a subtle tweak, it's a money con and I don't like to spend my time on playing games with cheaters.

Wotan i cant agree more !!!

My allegiance shows 462 days on the row with not 1 single missed log in since my day 1 on this game even when on vacations or on a tight time schedual. The last days i am at 0 motivation to play a game i loved.... Find it hard to convince myself to even do raids for resources and actually dont really do those either every day...
I really hope plarium understands what they are doing and where this will lead... all or most of us seeking another place to have our fun in our free time where our time , efforts and money of course will be treated with more respect. 
On the other end if Plarium really wants to kill the goose with the golden egg here , well,,, its theirs to kill... for now i keep login to see where this goes and so are most people in our team and those i speak too...

Ironic how we try to shake our host awake to save the game for them so we can stay here and keep spend our money on it lol Life really works in mysterious ways... 

Alyona Kolomiitseva said:

dxr250 said:

Ok let me give an example...

However, it also means that your Offense will be much more protected against such sudden attacks. So it works equally for both sides. 

This statement only applies to those again who can reach the top levels of the agreement map. People at level 20 are still at only +40% , while those at 32 are many times that value.

Again, this makes it so that smaller players and modest coiners will take a MUCH longer time (in fact for practical purposes theres really no way for them) to get the sketches to assure the resource storage required for the upgrades, let alone the sketches to upgrade the agreements pertaining to those troops the player specializes in.

This creates a situation where only a select few will have improved defense of offensive units, and thus will wield a further leveraged advantage over people who used to be able to use smaller armies to hurt larger ones. They are still impacted the most with the new changes.

Your still reducing a strategic game play strategy that allowed skill to count for something , AND making  game balance worse by widening the gap between your common player base and the top coiners.

We are still awaiting an answer regarding whether Plarium will consider the long term effects of these changes and if they will consider mitigating the aforementioned impacts for the betterment of the community and game.

Here is another post from another coalition leader. People are discussing a moritorium on drachma purchases until we at least get some kind of clarity on this issue across your game. This represents the feelings of a LARGE amount of your top coiners. Please take the time to address your community concern so it may be avoided entirely.

http://plarium.com/forum/en/sparta-war-of-empires/game-discussion/30698_all-top-20-coalitions-will-stop-coining-untill-further-notice-

please remember there is a initiative where most top coas are already in. anyone that wants more information, as plarium keep deleting posts, do not hesitate to contact any of us on game, skype, ts etc :-)

we basically complain of one thing of all changes, to lower the bonus for Level 31 and 32 to 70% ..... 

Archill said:

Hello, some suggestions to cool down this topic.

1. Lower the bonus for Level 31 and 32 to 70%

2. Make Level 31 and 31 avaliable for (a lot of) resources and/or

3. Give more sketches in the tournaments. It should be possible for an active player to earn 10.000 sketches in one year.

Regards Archill

Something like this would at least be a scaled mitigation of the mentioned issues, and would go a long way to assuring free players that while their roles would be reduced somewhat, they could still be relevant AND eventually attain troop parity with top pay players.

@Alyona if Plarium did this , then your statement would be much more accurate.