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Power Creep?

Power Creep?

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Sep 14, 2022, 09:2709/14/22
02/28/22
263

Power Creep?

So for a couple of mainly family related things I've not played much, but seeing the new dungeon and the rewards which if you're really lucky give your existing champs extra powers and in some cases it seems quite a lot of extra power - though the soul summon is pretty yuck, I got two good legendary souls but don't have the champs lol

My question is this - why does the game need overpowered champions?  Tales around the campfires tell of a time Arbiter was the best in the game, now she is hardly on anyones top ten, yes there is more content but if the game can be 'won' with what we've got is it good for the games sustainability to keep introducing more and more 'overpowered' champions

Take Lydia, yes even FTP will eventually get her, but the Death Hold skill is ridiculous, it's 100% guaranteed, if you have her in TAG or Classic and you battle a revive team you should be guaranteed a win, so why 100% proc? Her other skills are pretty OP also.  Take Gliseah  as a counter to Warlord, 50% proc, Stone skin 50% chance to resist strip, surely fairness should make it 50% proc chance?

There are plenty more examples, and this isn't a moan, mostly I'm not affected by these but if, as I suspect the only reason for these being introduced into the game is to encourage spending to get them then I predict they will spoil the game and even the spenders will look elsewhere

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27
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Sep 14, 2022, 10:0009/14/22
10/11/20
366

To answer your question, I would posit that the further into the game one is, the more difficult it is to impress a player with a new champion. If they are not wow-ed by the kit, they won't spend resources to get him.

As far as Lydia, yes, she's very good, yes, she's a game-changer for any mid-late account, but she's far from overpowered. Fully booked, her revive "gimmick" is on a 7 turn CD, and is easily countered with double revive or self revive mechanic.

harleQuinnModerator
Sep 14, 2022, 16:5609/14/22
02/24/19
7822

Lydia is an amazing champ, great all-arounder.... but like Tyr says, you will start to develop strategies to beat her.

I'm also not sure I've ever considered Arbiter the best champ in the game. She's great if you can get her early, and you'll continue using her forever.... but there are a number of champs I'd take first at this point if I could start with any single legendary. :)

Sep 14, 2022, 21:1909/14/22
02/11/21
932

Short answer - money. 

Long answer - the game content is designed with 2 main objectives: acquiring customers and retaining customers. Shard pulls make Plarium a lot of money, but once people get the champs they want, they stop spending as much. So what do you do? Get them to pull more champs. How? By introducing champs better than the ones they had before. This is no longer about making a game, it's about making money. 

In business, first, you work on generating market share. You do that by creating an exciting product. Once you have a loyal and invested customer base, you start cashing in on the operations. In my experience with the gacha games, as the company begins to cash out, the power creep turns into power race (short term gains). That's the supernova, that's how you know the star is dying.  

Sep 15, 2022, 08:3309/15/22
02/28/22
263
Balltazer

Short answer - money. 

Long answer - the game content is designed with 2 main objectives: acquiring customers and retaining customers. Shard pulls make Plarium a lot of money, but once people get the champs they want, they stop spending as much. So what do you do? Get them to pull more champs. How? By introducing champs better than the ones they had before. This is no longer about making a game, it's about making money. 

In business, first, you work on generating market share. You do that by creating an exciting product. Once you have a loyal and invested customer base, you start cashing in on the operations. In my experience with the gacha games, as the company begins to cash out, the power creep turns into power race (short term gains). That's the supernova, that's how you know the star is dying.  

Yep I guess so - I was being naive and thinking more about the game dynamics 

Sep 16, 2022, 02:0009/16/22
04/06/22
143

Arena battles have gotten to the point where they are not even close to fair. Ultimate Death Knight was a mistake. I used to think Death Knight was funny, now I despise him. I've seen stories about players going AFK on Arena Battles and coming back two hours to find the battle still a stalemate. 


There is NO REASON why  Scyl, Prince, Ninja AND Drath should be unable to defeat this goddam thing after two straight hours of trying! Stuff like this will just drive players away.

Sep 16, 2022, 02:0909/16/22
06/20/19
2181
OccamsRazor

Arena battles have gotten to the point where they are not even close to fair. Ultimate Death Knight was a mistake. I used to think Death Knight was funny, now I despise him. I've seen stories about players going AFK on Arena Battles and coming back two hours to find the battle still a stalemate. 


There is NO REASON why  Scyl, Prince, Ninja AND Drath should be unable to defeat this goddam thing after two straight hours of trying! Stuff like this will just drive players away.

I don't usually have a lot of trouble with him depending who's with him.  I mean he's new and dangerous so I'm careful.  

harleQuinnModerator
Sep 16, 2022, 03:5309/16/22
02/24/19
7822
OccamsRazor

Arena battles have gotten to the point where they are not even close to fair. Ultimate Death Knight was a mistake. I used to think Death Knight was funny, now I despise him. I've seen stories about players going AFK on Arena Battles and coming back two hours to find the battle still a stalemate. 


There is NO REASON why  Scyl, Prince, Ninja AND Drath should be unable to defeat this goddam thing after two straight hours of trying! Stuff like this will just drive players away.

Do you have ANY heal reduction champs? Any stun sets? That can stop his regen things.

Ultimate in full stoneskin can be difficult to deal with, but I bring in a debuffer and do the 50/50 buff removal roll.... then smack the DPS he's protecting with multihitters to take them out.

Happy to look over your roster and see if I can help with some strats to deal with him. :)

Sep 16, 2022, 11:2809/16/22
10/11/20
366
OccamsRazor

Arena battles have gotten to the point where they are not even close to fair. Ultimate Death Knight was a mistake. I used to think Death Knight was funny, now I despise him. I've seen stories about players going AFK on Arena Battles and coming back two hours to find the battle still a stalemate. 


There is NO REASON why  Scyl, Prince, Ninja AND Drath should be unable to defeat this goddam thing after two straight hours of trying! Stuff like this will just drive players away.

Yes, the bad ones. The good ones will find a workaround. If not immediately, then eventually. You say there's no reason, well, I can think of a few.

For starters, everyone knows what his passive does, so why bring Rector and Scyl, when they are healing machines? They are effectively working for the enemy.

On top of that, three of the champs, including, what I suspect, is the nuker (Ninja) - are all wrong affinity. Against one of the tankiest champions in the game? That's a loss the second you klick "Battle".

The best way to deal with UDK is with bombs. Gaius was a recent fusion, and he's top tier. Bombs ignore defense. If he's in Stoneskin, even better. Even Talia with Fenax would've been better than Ninja.

The other way is to avoid until you have better options. There's still plenty of one-man defenses out there to farm.

Sep 16, 2022, 14:1809/16/22
Sep 17, 2022, 11:06(edited)
04/06/22
143

"Do you have ANY heal reduction champs? Any stun sets? That can stop his regen things. "


Yep, plenty of both, they tend to get flattened before I can even take a turn. And when the opposing team has High Katun (which is, alway) she ALWAYS manages to use her Speed Boost before mine can, always. 


I've been matched up with teams that get FOUR TURNS (not hyperbole) before I get one, and teams where ALL FOUR of their Champions get a retalitory strike for EVERY move I make. I've seen them get TEN buffs per champion while getting ten debuffs on all of mine, again before I can even make a move. 

I admit this isn't "cheating", but let me be blunt, it sure ain't "playing" either. It's like target practice for the rich players who dump their trust funds into the cash shop just to troll the n00bs whom they never even talk to. And seeing as gaining the good Champions is always an RNG thing, it can be frustrating at the very least.

"For starters, everyone knows what his passive does, so why bring Rector and Scyl, when they are healing machines? They are effectively working for the enemy. "


You miss the point, I was using them as one example. Ultimate Death Knight is broken, period.


The easy solution is, SCALE TO LEVEL. Make sure that the available teams are no more than, say, 5 levels above to 5 behind the player. And why on Earth would they make Gold teams on the board for a Silver player?


I want to relate a story, if I may, one of another "allegedly free to play" MMPORPG whose name I will not mention. See, in even the beta format, the beta testers of this game discovered that without buying the lootboxes, it would take 40 hours of grinding to even have a chance of unlocking a good character. The developers went on Reddit and claimed they wanted to give players a "sense of satisfaction" when they finally got a good one. Well, this blatant lie became the most downvoted post on Reddit (within 11 hours, a "record" it still holds), caused Australia to introduce reforms to their gambling laws (for pete's sake) and eventually convnce the developers to change the game, but the damage was done. 


Should be a precautionary tale, but hey, some folks just never learn. 

Sep 16, 2022, 14:3809/16/22
02/11/21
932
OccamsRazor

"Do you have ANY heal reduction champs? Any stun sets? That can stop his regen things. "


Yep, plenty of both, they tend to get flattened before I can even take a turn. And when the opposing team has High Katun (which is, alway) she ALWAYS manages to use her Speed Boost before mine can, always. 


I've been matched up with teams that get FOUR TURNS (not hyperbole) before I get one, and teams where ALL FOUR of their Champions get a retalitory strike for EVERY move I make. I've seen them get TEN buffs per champion while getting ten debuffs on all of mine, again before I can even make a move. 

I admit this isn't "cheating", but let me be blunt, it sure ain't "playing" either. It's like target practice for the rich players who dump their trust funds into the cash shop just to troll the n00bs whom they never even talk to. And seeing as gaining the good Champions is always an RNG thing, it can be frustrating at the very least.

"For starters, everyone knows what his passive does, so why bring Rector and Scyl, when they are healing machines? They are effectively working for the enemy. "


You miss the point, I was using them as one example. Ultimate Death Knight is broken, period.


The easy solution is, SCALE TO LEVEL. Make sure that the available teams are no more than, say, 5 levels above to 5 behind the player. And why on Earth would they make Gold teams on the board for a Silver player?


I want to relate a story, if I may, one of another "allegedly free to play" MMPORPG whose name I will not mention. See, in even the beta format, the beta testers of this game discovered that without buying the lootboxes, it would take 40 hours of grinding to even have a chance of unlocking a good character. The developers went on Reddit and claimed they wanted to give players a "sense of satisfaction" when they finally got a good one. Well, this blatant lie became the most downvoted post on Reddit (within 11 hours, a "record" it still holds), caused Australia to introduce reforms to their gambling laws (for pete's sake) and eventually convnce the developers to change the game, but the damage was done. 


Should be a precautionary tale, but hey, some folks just never learn. 

Nah, he isn't broken. You said there is "NO REASON why they shouldn't", Tyr gave you 2 valid reasons. Example or not, it illustrates that you still have a lot to learn about the way Arena works. 

First, decide what kind of team you are going to use. Speed nukes are the easiest, and if High Khatun teams are outpacing you, my guess if your team is not a speed nuke team. Go-second teams are harder to build because they tend to be dedicated Arena teams with high-resist, revives etc. Give us your team, your roster, your gear, and I'm sure the people here can help you deal with UDK. Trust me, he is nowhere close to broken. He's not even in my tag team, and I'm a far cry from a whale. 

Sep 16, 2022, 15:1109/16/22
04/06/22
143

Oh yes, "you need better Speed". 


My Katun has two regular Speed sets and one Divine Speed set, and of course, every time I realize I get the wrong set on any champion, it takes at least a week of grinding to get enough coin to remove them and max a better set. 

Sep 16, 2022, 17:0009/16/22
02/11/21
932
OccamsRazor

Oh yes, "you need better Speed". 


My Katun has two regular Speed sets and one Divine Speed set, and of course, every time I realize I get the wrong set on any champion, it takes at least a week of grinding to get enough coin to remove them and max a better set. 

Ok, what's her speed? What's her gear? Sets tell me nothing. My Arbiter has one Speed set and one Perception set, and she has 212 Speed on top of her 110 base, and I still pick and choose whom I attack. 

You don't just slap 3 speed sets on a champ and call them fast. I mean she is obviously getting outpaced by other Khatuns, so yeah...."you need better speed".

Sep 16, 2022, 17:3509/16/22
Sep 16, 2022, 17:43(edited)
04/06/22
143

You know I don't believe you, right? It's like this on a lot of forums, the folks who use Tier Induced Scrappy characters fight to oth and nail so their cheesy cookie-cutter teams won't be nerfed.


Remember Paragon?

Sep 16, 2022, 17:5709/16/22
02/11/21
932

O, ye of little faith. It's not even that fast, I get outpaced by most Arbiters in G5, and will be until I get to 350 or so. So buckle up, bud. 

I showed you mine, show me yours. I'm telling you people here can help you, unless you draw pleasure from complaining about mediocre Arena chars being broken. Unless you are running Rotos, I wouldn't worry about UDK just yet. 

i

And not sure what you mean by "Tier Induced Scrappy" characters or how that affects nerfing of "cheesy, cookie-cutter teams, so might want to clarify that.

dthorne04Moderator
Sep 16, 2022, 18:1809/16/22
Sep 16, 2022, 18:32(edited)
12/30/20
6029

I think it's important not to conflate a strong or extremely strong champion with being overpowered, and this applies to OP too with Lydia. UDK certainly falls into this category as well, but to an even lesser extent. The issue is well built/geared UDK's are absolutely going to give fits to early to mid game players who simply lack the tools and/or know how to deal with him. 

@OccamsRazor feel free to make a thread with your roster, current gearing, champs you're using, etc. if you'd like to have folks take a look at it. I think it'd be a lot better than just being frustrated, but it is up to you. 

Sep 16, 2022, 23:0409/16/22
05/19/19
7
OccamsRazor

Arena battles have gotten to the point where they are not even close to fair. Ultimate Death Knight was a mistake. I used to think Death Knight was funny, now I despise him. I've seen stories about players going AFK on Arena Battles and coming back two hours to find the battle still a stalemate. 


There is NO REASON why  Scyl, Prince, Ninja AND Drath should be unable to defeat this goddam thing after two straight hours of trying! Stuff like this will just drive players away.

Here you go: 

(a few minutes ago)   Not that OP of a champion in Arena, including when he has a decent support cast as below.

You have to adjust your arena teams depending on the champions on the teams you are facing.  Cannot expect to use the same team all over and win most of the time.  That would not be fun :) 


i


Sep 17, 2022, 11:0509/17/22
04/06/22
143

I would like to thank Balltazer and thrylos for proving my point, and showing how their teams contain Champions I do not stand a prayer of getting due to budget constraints.


Hell, I'd love to unlock Arbiter, but to do so, I have to finish - no, check that, I have to start a questline I've been stuck on for months because I simply can't form a team that can defeat the Level 13 Fire Knight on auto, much less the level 14 version. 

Sep 17, 2022, 12:2309/17/22
Sep 17, 2022, 12:25(edited)
06/25/20
6641
OccamsRazor

I would like to thank Balltazer and thrylos for proving my point, and showing how their teams contain Champions I do not stand a prayer of getting due to budget constraints.


Hell, I'd love to unlock Arbiter, but to do so, I have to finish - no, check that, I have to start a questline I've been stuck on for months because I simply can't form a team that can defeat the Level 13 Fire Knight on auto, much less the level 14 version. 

You do realize that all four of the champs in that ss were free, right?

If you're stuck on missions, start a thread and ask for help. Especially if they are for low level dungeons that you definitely should be able to clear

Sep 17, 2022, 13:1009/17/22
Sep 17, 2022, 13:13(edited)
04/06/22
143

My point in coming here was NOT to ask for advice on team building (I've given that up; done that on other posts, never get decent advice anyway) my point was to point out how unbalanced the Arena is.


I have a question for everyone here:


You've spent five minutes to defeat a Champion who will not go down, seeing your team slam their best attacks on it again and again, cursing every time because you were suckered by a troll into clicking on a team with half your team power, eventually realizing you have to surrender the match, and then see the words, "DEFEAT: NO REWARD" for the tenth time in the past day?


Yeah, how do you feel?

Sep 17, 2022, 13:2309/17/22
11/16/20
1154
OccamsRazor

My point in coming here was NOT to ask for advice on team building (I've given that up; done that on other posts, never get decent advice anyway) my point was to point out how unbalanced the Arena is.


I have a question for everyone here:


You've spent five minutes to defeat a Champion who will not go down, seeing your team slam their best attacks on it again and again, cursing every time because you were suckered by a troll into clicking on a team with half your team power, eventually realizing you have to surrender the match, and then see the words, "DEFEAT: NO REWARD" for the tenth time in the past day?


Yeah, how do you feel?

You should probably just make a advice thread at this point. You're very wrong with what your saying about things. Being stuck on such low level dungeons and struggling in arena doesnt have to be a thing.

You can keep your head jn the sand and say things are broken or you can just go make a thread with your roster and your gearing and move forward in the game or just keep complaining and get no where.

And your question here, no single champ or team is going to waste 5 minutes, because I've taken advice on how to not ever let that happen.