"The difference between people that can make it out of Silver/Bronze and those that cannot, is that people who stay in Bronze and Silver is that they haven't put in the work to build a team (Dragon, Fire Knight), just to get the awesome gear you need to compete in the middle and late game. Perhaps they don't want to gear cleanse everything that isn't awesome gear.
Yes, farming all week for one or two potential pieces requires focus and patience. But if you want to progress in Arena, you have to do what everyone in Arena has done. You have to go back and farm what you need to get there."
This really is kind of it. It's why people absolutely need to prioritize/push hard to get to Dragon 20 ASAP because yes, it does take a good bit of grind to get to the stat thresholds you need to hit.
296 speed isn't a mythical number. Nor is 100% cr/150%+ cdmg if you're doing a proper grind, even as a F2P. Nor is 250+ accuracy, especially with the great hall. I'm very low spend, at month 11 now and I think I was able to hit those numbers somewhere around month 7-8, if not earlier. There is obviously some RNG involved in getting the proper drops, but the more you put in the dungeon runs the lower your variance will be, of course.
In general I think there's some really bad faith arguments going on, like attacking defensive lineups that would make literally 0 sense for a normal speed booster/def down/nuke/nuke comp. The concepts laid out here by harlequinn are more than valid.
It's funny, when I posted my f2p team in the comments of an Arena complaint thread, however many months back, I'm pretty sure I had the same people saying my 98k team power team had godly stats and that's the only reason I was able to climb into gold.
It's funny, when I posted my f2p team in the comments of an Arena complaint thread, however many months back, I'm pretty sure I had the same people saying my 98k team power team had godly stats and that's the only reason I was able to climb into gold.
I hit 1980 as my personal best and lost thereafter. Got bored of been soloed by cheap gold characters and only go back there to do the daily stuff.
Getting up into Silver the first time is def a TON of work. Was a huge grind for me to work through Bronze 4 into Silver 1. Keep at it, post your teams here, we're here to help!
Player J did not come off as his normal JAG self and I agree with him, is the world ending? 😀
Haha, my thoughts exactly 😂
Good discussion, though. Learned a fair bit. Let me just add: most players with one account don't focus, not in the first months. There's a lot of new things and they all take time. A bit of overwhelming. If I write for myself, I focused on Arbiter, not on the speed. Now that I have her, I can focus and I'm willing to do that. So, when you're making the 2nd account you're doing it to focus on speed. If I'd start over now, I'd do a lot things differently.
If players need less speed than what I showed to make it into Gold, that would be even better, wouldn't you think? They could push into gold at 270, or 280, etc, couldn't they? You can hit 296 speed without spending a dime, sometime after about 6 months, if your focus is to build a Dragon team.
And why would I ever fight a High Resistance, High Shield, go second Tormin style team with my F2P team on my second account? All of us pick and choose what defenses we fight and I have learned not to fight several types of teams unless I have built the counters for them. That is part of the learning process if you want to get good in Arena.
You saw dthorne below me post a team winning in Gold 4. No Serris. Only using three champs.
The Tag didn't work.
I didn't receive a notification saying you responded to me.
I am only seeing your reply now a few days later.
What I want to say is I think your Original Post was created with good intentions.
It seems to me - Your trying to be helpful which is good.
The problem is some of the things you say & examples you give are controversial.
You don't need a Dragon Team to reach Gold Arena.
A person could farm Ice Golem or Fire Knight to reach Gold Arena.
I guess the best way to explain what I mean is by showing pictures.
Here is a Sample Picture of a Rare Team - Speed Nuke Set up.
Hopefully, people know what the above team does.
I will not write the Turn Order or explain the thought process of why the team is created.
Instead, I will only talk about the Gears which I would use on the above team.
I love your enthusiam and walk through individual scenarios.
Farming Dragon drops Speed and Accuracy sets. Those give you the fastest and easiest ways to reach the speed and accuracy numbers needed to move from Silver to Gold. It is really that simple.
Fire Knight is a considerably more difficult dungeon to farm at a level that makes sense and will drop quality 5 star gear.
People posting in this thread mostly just want to move up from Bronze to Silver, and Silver to Gold. It doesn't need to be this complicated. Get your champs fast enough and your nuker strong enough to compete, then play some matches to learn what kind of setups your team is good against, and what kind it isn't.
Also, weren't you the one telling me I shouldn't use a Madame or a 290 speed High Khatun? Well, it seems a Mortu, Zelotah, Vrask Harvest Jack team at 277k team power is right out of reach for the players we're talking about here. Why don't you post some of those rare comps in action for us? Just as an example of who they win against?
Easiest way to progress in arena is to farm speed gear in Dragon, equip a speed nuke team, and get fighting.
1) with your rare team examples, it sure would've been nice to see some matchups, etc. where it worked.
2) There is zero chance farming Dragon to reach Gold Arena is a controversial stance. Maybe you don't need to grind dragon to reach Gold Arena, but for the vast majority of early game players it's going to be far, far more efficient unless you open shards like a god. Fire Knight and Ice Golem to a degree require specific champions, or perhaps taking champs up that might provide diminishing returns later.
Dragon provides a much more straight line, sensical path overall that will give us progression in the most efficient manner.
3) In this hypothesis, are we assuming players are able to farm FK/IG at a high enough level vs. Dragon for it to make sense, because that seems unrealistic at best. The gear these players are getting at FK/IG will likely end up providing diminishing returns again versus whatever they're able to farm from Dragon 17-20, which is a lot easier for early game to early mid game players to get to.
4) Early game F2P players climbing the ladder are very unlikely to do well in Arena, Faction Wars or Clan Boss (and Fire Knight for that matter) to help improve their gearing.
Whole concept of your post just seems inefficient overall since the point of harleQuinn's post in the first place was providing examples of how players can build out a speed nuke team and climb to lower gold as a F2P with 3 login champs.
Kael - 2 Cruel Gears ---------------> Shop Offer Pack or Clan Boss Rewards
Most of the gear for the above team comes from a Single Location "Dragon".
The previous set up was more ideal, but it had gear which was harder to acquire.
The gear in the current set up is more concentrated to a Single Location "Dragon".
NOW HERE COMES THE TRICKY PART WHICH CONFUSES PEOPLE:
If your goal is to reach Gold Tier Arena, Do you need to Farm Dragon?
The answer to the above question can be a YES or it can be a NO.
AND HERE IS WHY THE ANSWER CAN BE EITHER/OR.
Gold Tier Arena is dominated by 2 different Play Styles.
- You have SPEED Play Style
- You have TANK Play Style
The SPEED Play Style is what I showed with the Kael Rare team.
If your Goal is to reach Gold with a SPEED Play Style, You have to farm DRAGON!
All the Gear you need for that team to be successful comes from the Dragon.
Now here is Fruit for Thought, What if you Goal is to Reach Gold with TANK Play Style.
Where do you Farm for TANK team?
*Hint* You don't Farm Dragon for Tank Team.
Most of the gear for TANK Team comes from Ice Golem or Fire Knight.
Here are some examples:
This set up is what we would call Shield Hell.
All 4 of these heroes will be in Shield with Health Aura.
- DoomScreech ----> 4 Shield + 2 Immortal
- Seducer ----------> 4 Shield + 2 Immortal
- Coffin Smasher --> 4 Shield + 2 Immortal
- Witness ----------> 4 Shield + 2 Immortal
This set up isn't used as much due to Madam's, but you still run across it some times.
The set up is slightly bizarre, but highly effective against certain teams.
This set up is High Shield + High ACC build.
This set up doesn't use Resistance.
The lack of Resistance means this set up Auto Losses against a Buff Stripper.
Keep in mind, The team I am showing you is Rare Team.
The Kael team I showed previously is a Rare Team.
If the 2 were to Battle, The Kael team would struggle.
The Kael team has no Buff Strippers.
Trying to Nuke thru a Quad-Stack Shield is like trying to do the impossible.
This set up is Highly Effective against Non-Buff Stripping teams or Non-CC teams.
Where do we acquire the gear for this set up?
- Shield Gear ------> Fire Knight Farm
- Immortal Gear --> Clan Boss Reward
To Gear this team a player would concentrate their efforts into farming Fire Knight.
The team success depends on the gear quality and the Fire Knight can provide the quality.
NO DRAGON FARMING!
Maybe, the Dragon doesn't give you leggo drops
Maybe, the Dragon hates you.
BUT THE FIRE KNIGHT LOVES YOU!
It might give you the good stuff.
Here is a Picture of me using my Quad-Shield team.
You can see the game calibrating my Starting Shield.
The 4 Blue Shield Text Over my Mortu Macaab.
You can see the enemy team is moving before my team.
I took the Screenshot exactly at the moment the Enemy Arbiter was doing her Turn.
Mentor of Heroes is Arbiters Turn Meter Move.
The Enemy is using a SPEED Play Style team which we would call "Blender".
They are using Increase Atk Hero + Rally Hero + 2x AOE Heroes.
This Team has No Buff Strippers.
This Team has No Crowd Control.
This Team is extremely vulnerable to the High Shield - High Accuracy Set up
You can barely even see my Green Health Bar behind the Quad-Stack Gray Shield Bar.
The Enemy team has fully moved.
You can still see my Gray Shield Bar on 3 of my heroes.
The Enemy can't win if they can't reach my Green Health Bar.
You can see it clear as day.
Here is my Zelotah restoring my team with a Shield incase you missed it.
You was probably getting worried about my team shield disappearing.
It was a Gold 4 fight.
I refreshed to find a Non-Stripper team or Non-CC team.
I came across the Blender set up which is ideal for my team comp. so I attacked.
Most players will do the same thing depending on their set up.
The Last Rare set up I will show is the High Resist + High Shield set up.
This set up only uses 1 hero in Shield set.
This set up mostly aims for Resistance to Counter Stripper / CC teams.
Notice the difference between to 2 Tank teams.
High Shield (4 Shield Heroes) + High ACC
--> Good against Raw Damage because the damage get absorbed by the Shield.
--> Good against Non-Crowd Control teams because the team has low Resistance.
Teams which fit the profile:
- Blender Teams
- Double Nuke Teams
--> Bad against Buff Strippers because they remove the Quad Shield making it Useless.
--> Bad against Crowd Control because they have no way to Resist a Lock Out.
Teams which fit the profile:
- Madam or Prince Kymar teams
- Ma'Shalled or Maulie team
The reason I mention the above information is because it is reversed when talking about High Shield + High Resist team.
High Shield + High ACC team is good vs. Blenders.
High Shield + High RESIST team is bad vs. Blender.
Do you see how it is the opposite?
High Shield + High ACC team is bad vs. Crowd Control.
High Shield + High RESIST team is good vs. Crowd Control.
It is all reversed and it all makes sense when you think about it.
I think your Original Post was created with good intentions. It seems to me - You're trying to be helpful which is good. The problem is some of the things you say & examples you give are controversial.
You wrote a very long, complicated and overthought process on how players can get to Gold. One thing that you seemed to have missed or forgotten is that 99% of new accounts will not be farming FK or IG at a level that would help them. Dragon is by far the easiest dungeon to progress in, and not only will it help them advance in arena it is the most efficient and crucial dungeon to farm for PVE progression for newer players as well.
My advice to every new person is to push as high as they can in Dragon so that they can get their speed and lifesteal sets because these will be the key pieces that allow them to advance in
S Tier: Dragon
1) Faction Wars - which is what they need to get those perception sets you were talking about.
2) Campaign
3) Arena
4) Ice Golem
5) Fire Knight
6) Spider
7) Minotaur
8) Force Keep
9) Magic Keep
10) Spirit Keep
11) Arcane Keep
12) Void keep
Why on earth would you write up such a condescending piece of word vomit like this when you know deep down that the advice Quinn gave is the easiest and most efficient way for new and mid game players to advance in every aspect of the game?
Like others said, Dragon is by far the easiest dungeon. I could do Dragon 25 on auto before I could manage FK 20. I guess most players can get 6* speed sets before they have decent shield sets, so I would give the advice to build a speednuking team first, it's the best way to start.
On the other hand, when I was in Silver 4 with a team of Deacon, Apo, Ghostborn, Sinesha, it was quite hard to beat teams like Miscreated Monster in a shield set together with Sinesha + Skullcrown in counterattack sets. It helps, if you understand how other teams as the typical speednukers work, even you don't build them and just fight vs. them with your speedteam.
I think Player J's post is very helpull to new players when he describes how such teams work. In Bronze most players just put any random heroes in their team, but in Silver and Gold you find opponents that create teams with a certain strategy. You need to know how their teams work before the fight starts, just from seeing wich champs they use and thinking about what strategy they probably try with that champs. It saves a lot of arena points and tickets if you pick only fights you can win as attacker.
As a newer player will be a year come Feb, I find how dismissive everyone is about the arena disturbing 😀.
While Bronze does have some thrown together teams there are alot of set up team and alot of higher ranking teams that I am going to guess are from players who quit, because I have never seen anything posted by Plarium about teams getting cleaned out of the system after being inactive for so long.
I understand alot of peoples fustration with Arena as it is a MUST DO, it is part of dailies and the Great Hall makes the rest of the game easier. If it was not part of Dailies and the Great Hall I WOULD NOT DO IT! and I am in G4 and still think it sucks 😈
I thank all the people who give good advice as listening to you all helped me to get to G4, but the bigger thing that helped was just stupid luck 😁
As a newer player will be a year come Feb, I find how dismissive everyone is about the arena disturbing 😀.
While Bronze does have some thrown together teams there are alot of set up team and alot of higher ranking teams that I am going to guess are from players who quit, because I have never seen anything posted by Plarium about teams getting cleaned out of the system after being inactive for so long.
I understand alot of peoples fustration with Arena as it is a MUST DO, it is part of dailies and the Great Hall makes the rest of the game easier. If it was not part of Dailies and the Great Hall I WOULD NOT DO IT! and I am in G4 and still think it sucks 😈
I thank all the people who give good advice as listening to you all helped me to get to G4, but the bigger thing that helped was just stupid luck 😁
Oh, I admit that I was very frustrated myself the first month or so I played, maybe two months.
Then I learned what teams to skip, and what to hit. Sometimes you'd get a page in Bronze 4 where you would only hit 3 teams, and then come back later to refresh it and try again. Cause my High Khatun, Dhukk, Athel, Rowan team wasn't cutting it against Tormin/Siphi.
But I finally squeeked into Silver 1 and things got a tad better, and I progressed on my Arbiter missions again. :)
I definitely understand the frustration. The point of all of these posts is to show it is possible, and to walk through how I did it, and what I focused on to do it.
I think your Original Post was created with good intentions. It seems to me - You're trying to be helpful which is good. The problem is some of the things you say & examples you give are controversial.
You wrote a very long, complicated and overthought process on how players can get to Gold. One thing that you seemed to have missed or forgotten is that 99% of new accounts will not be farming FK or IG at a level that would help them. Dragon is by far the easiest dungeon to progress in, and not only will it help them advance in arena it is the most efficient and crucial dungeon to farm for PVE progression for newer players as well.
My advice to every new person is to push as high as they can in Dragon so that they can get their speed and lifesteal sets because these will be the key pieces that allow them to advance in
S Tier: Dragon
1) Faction Wars - which is what they need to get those perception sets you were talking about.
2) Campaign
3) Arena
4) Ice Golem
5) Fire Knight
6) Spider
7) Minotaur
8) Force Keep
9) Magic Keep
10) Spirit Keep
11) Arcane Keep
12) Void keep
Why on earth would you write up such a condescending piece of word vomit like this when you know deep down that the advice Quinn gave is the easiest and most efficient way for new and mid game players to advance in every aspect of the game?
What makes you think Players can't Farm Fire Knight or Ice Golem at decent level?
You only need to reach Stage 13 to get 6 star drops?
You say players push further in Dragon vs. the Other Dungeon, but you have seen as many threads as I have in the forums?
How much further do they really push?
From all the threads I have seen, it isn't a massive difference.
For Example:
A player might get stuck on
- Dragon 15
- Ice Golem 13
- Fire Knight 13
In this scenerio, the player pushed further in Dragon vs. other dungeons.
But all the dungeons drop same gear 4 to 6 star.
The Stage 15 dungeon might have slightly better leggo percentage vs. 13 dungeon, but it hardly makes a difference because at the end of the day your still at the mercy of RNG.
The reason I mention this is because I was once a beginner too.
What makes you think Players can't Farm Fire Knight or Ice Golem at decent level?
You only need to reach Stage 13 to get 6 star drops?
You say players push further in Dragon vs. the Other Dungeon, but you have seen as many threads as I have in the forums?
How much further do they really push?
From all the threads I have seen, it isn't a massive difference.
For Example:
A player might get stuck on
- Dragon 15
- Ice Golem 13
- Fire Knight 13
In this scenerio, the player pushed further in Dragon vs. other dungeons.
But all the dungeons drop same gear 4 to 6 star.
The Stage 15 dungeon might have slightly better leggo percentage vs. 13 dungeon, but it hardly makes a difference because at the end of the day your still at the mercy of RNG.
The reason I mention this is because I was once a beginner too.
Harle Quin isn't really correct.
I didn't reaching Gold with a Speed team.
I reached Gold Arena with a Tank team.
With regards to Fire Knight, you need more specific champions, whereas Kael (whom early players definitely should be taking as their starter) can carry you through a lot of Dragon, in your free lifesteal gear.
It seems convenient that in your scenario we're getting stopped at Dragon 15 vs FK/IG 13 when Dragon 16 is void and is a fairly easy threshold for a lot of players to hit before getting there in FK/IG. Drop improve immensely at 16.
Not to mention being subject to RNG would make you want to stack up more opportunities at better chances to improve your gear, not make you less likely to care about doing that. Getting to Dragon 16 will also be more efficient with regards to time spent in the game, given how important Speed/Lifesteal/Accuracy is early and how much faster dungeon runs should be versus IG/FK. Dragon 16 is easier to get to versus the other ones which means more efficient energy usage during tourneys and Dungeon Diver events.
For the vast majority of players this straight line path to a speed team will be a lot simpler than trying to reach gold with a tank team. Also much more likely if we're farming Dragon 16 we can actually end up with some gear that you end up using for awhile, too.
Everything you're saying just feels very anecdotal rather than being based on math and logic. It seems like the concepts Quinn laid out are sensical and do work.
Also drop rates: (open image in another tab if too blurry)
Even if we're just talking 13 to 15, going from 50 to 56.5% chance of 5* gear and 5% to 7.5% 6* gear is absolutely huge. Obviously it shifts a bit at 16, but you no longer get brews or mystery shards which makes that jump worth it, when combined with the other benefits 16 offers.
What makes you think Players can't Farm Fire Knight or Ice Golem at decent level?
You only need to reach Stage 13 to get 6 star drops?
You say players push further in Dragon vs. the Other Dungeon, but you have seen as many threads as I have in the forums?
How much further do they really push?
From all the threads I have seen, it isn't a massive difference.
For Example:
A player might get stuck on
- Dragon 15
- Ice Golem 13
- Fire Knight 13
In this scenerio, the player pushed further in Dragon vs. other dungeons.
But all the dungeons drop same gear 4 to 6 star.
The Stage 15 dungeon might have slightly better leggo percentage vs. 13 dungeon, but it hardly makes a difference because at the end of the day your still at the mercy of RNG.
The reason I mention this is because I was once a beginner too.
Harle Quin isn't really correct.
I didn't reaching Gold with a Speed team.
I reached Gold Arena with a Tank team.
Your first argument that you tried to make, or rather imply without actually stating, is that you have seen more threads on this topic than I have. Who cares? The dungeon levels you used as an example are anecdotal at best. And while there is a chance your example numbers could be correct, you are conveniently avoiding both the drop rates AND the average time it takes most newer players to get through those level 13 dungeons. I could bang my head against FK 13 for 10 minutes each run, but take out dragon in 5 minutes. Why would I farm the harder dungeon? So sure, if new players happen to get a TM control and multihitter sure they can get through FK in a farmable time. But the advice we give is directed towards the vast majority that have cookie cutter f2p champions. Think starter champs and login reward champs only, not whatever shards you or I opened through spending.
YOU made it to gold with a tank team, that doesn't mean it was a quick or efficient way to get there.
Quinn isn't wrong at all, because she bases her recommendations off of the majority of team comps she has seen new/mid accounts use. Whereas you are seemingly only using your personal experience while touting it as fact.
I notice that you showed a screen shot of some f2p friendly tank teams you built without showing any results, whereas with your 277k power tank team you felt comfortable showing results against an extremely weak speed team.
Quinn on the other hand has made several posts and comments about her f2p team that she built using her recommended progression path and has proven it works time and again.
Speaking of her team vs yours, YOU complained that her Serris and Ninja were not f2p friendly or easy to acquire, despite Ninja literally being free for several months and Madame Serris being an event reward a couple weeks ago. But here you are with a Mortu, Zelotah, Vrask and Harvest jack as the only team you feel comfortable showing off? I think you just pulled the rug out from under your feet, you have nothing to back up any of your claims.
Im always surprising when i see the worse teams in gold 4 than gold 1 and 2. Im at least refreshing 20 30 times in a day and teams usually has Arbiter, Kymar or Lysandra leads. There are even Lydia teams. %20 of teams are 100 Lv accounts etc. Probably we are suffering because of non active players in gold 1 and 2 . Oh and the people who farms low powered players since im losing 50 points in an hour sometimes with 200k+ power teams.
Your first argument that you tried to make, or rather imply without actually stating, is that you have seen more threads on this topic than I have. Who cares? The dungeon levels you used as an example are anecdotal at best. And while there is a chance your example numbers could be correct, you are conveniently avoiding both the drop rates AND the average time it takes most newer players to get through those level 13 dungeons. I could bang my head against FK 13 for 10 minutes each run, but take out dragon in 5 minutes. Why would I farm the harder dungeon? So sure, if new players happen to get a TM control and multihitter sure they can get through FK in a farmable time. But the advice we give is directed towards the vast majority that have cookie cutter f2p champions. Think starter champs and login reward champs only, not whatever shards you or I opened through spending.
YOU made it to gold with a tank team, that doesn't mean it was a quick or efficient way to get there.
Quinn isn't wrong at all, because she bases her recommendations off of the majority of team comps she has seen new/mid accounts use. Whereas you are seemingly only using your personal experience while touting it as fact.
I notice that you showed a screen shot of some f2p friendly tank teams you built without showing any results, whereas with your 277k power tank team you felt comfortable showing results against an extremely weak speed team.
Quinn on the other hand has made several posts and comments about her f2p team that she built using her recommended progression path and has proven it works time and again.
Speaking of her team vs yours, YOU complained that her Serris and Ninja were not f2p friendly or easy to acquire, despite Ninja literally being free for several months and Madame Serris being an event reward a couple weeks ago. But here you are with a Mortu, Zelotah, Vrask and Harvest jack as the only team you feel comfortable showing off? I think you just pulled the rug out from under your feet, you have nothing to back up any of your claims.
I am not avoiding the drop rate.
I am just trying to explain how the drop rate is misleading you in your argument.
Here is Example:
Lets say we use Dhorne04 graph.
Lets say a person is farming Ice Golem 13 & Dragon 16.
Statistically, the player has higher drop rate for epics & leggos from Dragon 16 vs. Ice Golem.
The question is what does stats mean in real world setting?
What it means is the player might get only 3 epic + 3 leggo gears from Ice Golem.
Yet, they might get 8 epic + 8 leggo gears from Dragon.
All the stats are fine & good, but how many of the above gears are useable?
What if you get flat stats on all your Dragon gear?
What if you get good stats on all your Ice Golem gear?
The game has element of RNG.
Everything I am saying does happen.
I'm not making it up.
In response to the average time, I'm not ignoring it.
I don't put much stock on the average time to beat a dungeon.
A F2P player could farm a dungeon over night with their 30 free runs.
The time it takes to win will be irrelevant because they will be sleeping.
In response to my Mortu Macaab team, I didn't use the team as Beginners example.
The reason I showed the team is because the "Rare" team I shows isn't max level.
I wanted to demonstrate the strategy of the team in how it can be useful.
Like J, I also used a tanky team to get to G4 originally. But I would not recommend it, lol. Those that struggle with arena, have multiple issues (generally self-inflicted lmao) and recommending more complex solutions that are even more difficult to gear just isn't going to work. Even if building those tanky champs will help long-term progression more.
The speed nuke team is easiest to build and quickest path to G4
The fights are faster, the game is 100x more of a time suck now. Nobody has time for long arena battles
Farming Dragon 20 should be top priority (and 24/25 when you can). J is wrong here, and he knows it :) I think the anniversary video he posted, put him on the Olympic podium for Dragon runs (an absurd number if I recall correctly). My video showed I was dumb, and ran spider (faster and more silver!) but that gave me silver to waste on crappy gear :)