God said:

Ok, just wondering about a few things as far as the clan boss:

1)  Does defense down increase the damage from warmaster and giant slayer, or just regular champion attacks?

2)  If someone has a 4-hit A1 attack and they have giant slayer, would they (on average) do double the damage from giant slayer compared to a champion that has a 1-hit A1 attack with warmaster?  If not, how do they cap the damage to prevent that from happening?

3)  Weaken is far more important on the clan boss than defense down is, right?

4)  Other than the offense mastery branch, is defense or support typically better?  I see [retribution] in defense that could cause more warmaster or giant slayer hits, but then I see [master hexer] in support that could prolong poisons, weaken, and defense down debuffs.  Which one tends to be more valuable for most champions?

1. I understand that GS & WM are flat % HP dmg, hence def down or other effects like weaken which increase base attack damage shouldn't affect them. The damage from these skills should work similar to HP burn or poison.
2. GS can proc with each hit, but due to the lower chance of it actually triggering, I don't think it sports such a huge dmg boost over WM. Not sure if there's any capping being done, as I haven't farmed that far into the mastery trees
   
3. I don't know about this one
4. As stated above, I am not that far within the mastery trees. I strongly think this depends on the team used, considering whether the champions do more dmg via debuffs or their regular attacks in conjunction with GS & WM
   

Well thanks for trying.

As far as #2, the chance of it triggering is half that of wm.  So wm has a 60% chance, gs has a 30% chance.

God said:

Well thanks for trying.

As far as #2, the chance of it triggering is half that of wm.  So wm has a 60% chance, gs has a 30% chance.

With that said, if someone has wm with 1 hit each turn, it is a 60% chance of triggering.  If the in-game description is correct and there is no limiting cap, that means if someone has 4-hits each turn and they have gs, that is a total of 4x30% which comes out to a 120% chance each time of getting a hit.  This means that on average, they would do literally double the damage from gs compared to wm.  That is assuming they don't have some type of cap to it to prevent that though.  No one seems to be able to confirm whether they do or not.

But you know that that's not how probability calculation works, right? :D

There are tons of probability calculators on the web, here's one for you: https://www.calculator.net/probability-calculator.html?cal4pa=0.3&cal4par=4&cal4pb=0&cal4pbr=0&calctype=series&x=62&y=14#series

In this specific example, you want to check Probability of a Series of Events, with Event A set to 0.3 (probability) & 4 (repeat times - since you were talking about a 4-hit attack) and Event B set to 0 & 0.

That gives you the following result:

• Probability of A occuring 4 time(s) = 0.3^4 = 0.0081 = 0.81%
  

• Probability of A NOT occuring = (1 - 0.3)^4 = 0.2401 = 24,01%
  

• Probability of A occuring = 1 - (1 - 0.3)^4 = 0.7599 = 75.99%

So it is either 60% of the time 4% max hp dmg, or ~76% of the time 3% max hp dmg.

I'll even throw in an example calculation:

• Let's just assume the boss has 100.000.000 HP
• WM: 60% probability, 1 hit, 4% max hp dmg = 0.6 ^ 1 * 0.04 * 100.000.000 = 2.400.000 dmg
  
• GS: 30% probability, 4 hits, 3% max hp dmg & 4 procs = (1 - (1 - 0,3) ^ 4) * 0.03 * 100.000.000 = 2.279.700 dmg
• GS: 30% probability, 4 hits, 3% max hp dmg & 3 procs = (1 - (1 - 0,3) ^ 4) * 0.03 * 100.000.000 = 1.971.000 dmg
  
• GS: 30% probability, 4 hits, 3% max hp dmg & 1 proc = 900.000 dmg max
  

So yes, it can outperform WM by a ton, but how often is this going to happen? Based on numbers averaging every 123rd attack.

If you still think GS is doing 2 times the damage of WM, I cannot help you any more :)

MadCo0kie said:

God said:

Well thanks for trying.

As far as #2, the chance of it triggering is half that of wm.  So wm has a 60% chance, gs has a 30% chance.

With that said, if someone has wm with 1 hit each turn, it is a 60% chance of triggering.  If the in-game description is correct and there is no limiting cap, that means if someone has 4-hits each turn and they have gs, that is a total of 4x30% which comes out to a 120% chance each time of getting a hit.  This means that on average, they would do literally double the damage from gs compared to wm.  That is assuming they don't have some type of cap to it to prevent that though.  No one seems to be able to confirm whether they do or not.

But you know that that's not how probability works, right? :D

There are tons of probability calculators on the web, here's one for you: https://www.calculator.net/probability-calculator.html?cal4pa=0.3&cal4par=4&cal4pb=0&cal4pbr=0&calctype=series&x=62&y=14#series

In this specific example, you want to check Probability of a Series of Events, with Event A set to 0.3 & 4 (since you were talking about a 4-hit attack) and Event B set to 0 & 0

That gives you the following result:

• Probability of A occuring 4 time(s) = 0.3^4 = 0.0081 = 0.81%
  

• Probability of A NOT occuring = (1 - 0.3)^4 = 0.2401 = 24,01%
  

• Probability of A occuring = 1 - (1 - 0.3)^4 = 0.7599 = 75.99%
  

I was a physics major in college.  Graduated with 4.0 and multiple academic awards. ;)  Statistics are statistics.  A probability calculator over-complicates based on specific outcomes.  Cumulatively speaking, my calculations were correct.

My point was that gs has the *potential* to do better damage from what I am seeing.  And regardless of specific probabilities, on average given a large quantity of fights cumulatively, the average damage gs would do in that particular scenario is double the damage.  Probabilities of particular outcome are irrelevant to that.

I'm not sure why so many people argue basic percentages.  You aren't the only one.  It's like I could say someone has a 0.00001% chance of winning the state lottery, and yet they have a 3% chance of winning a scratch off.  Meanwhile, some people seem to try to argue that because of RNG, it doesn't matter which one you pick, you have just as much RNG of winning either.  That's simply not the case, yet I have seen MANY people with that kind of logic.

Anyway, until I see some cap stating otherwise, I am assuming someone with 3-4 hits and gs is going to do superior damage from that mastery compared to a wm champion.  I do appreciate you showing me the probability calculator, but again, it is just over-complicating a very simple percentage-based calculation by analyzing specific outcomes.

AscendantGod said:

MadCo0kie said:

God said:

Well thanks for trying.

As far as #2, the chance of it triggering is half that of wm.  So wm has a 60% chance, gs has a 30% chance.

With that said, if someone has wm with 1 hit each turn, it is a 60% chance of triggering.  If the in-game description is correct and there is no limiting cap, that means if someone has 4-hits each turn and they have gs, that is a total of 4x30% which comes out to a 120% chance each time of getting a hit.  This means that on average, they would do literally double the damage from gs compared to wm.  That is assuming they don't have some type of cap to it to prevent that though.  No one seems to be able to confirm whether they do or not.

But you know that that's not how probability works, right? :D

There are tons of probability calculators on the web, here's one for you: https://www.calculator.net/probability-calculator.html?cal4pa=0.3&cal4par=4&cal4pb=0&cal4pbr=0&calctype=series&x=62&y=14#series

In this specific example, you want to check Probability of a Series of Events, with Event A set to 0.3 & 4 (since you were talking about a 4-hit attack) and Event B set to 0 & 0

That gives you the following result:

• Probability of A occuring 4 time(s) = 0.3^4 = 0.0081 = 0.81%
  

• Probability of A NOT occuring = (1 - 0.3)^4 = 0.2401 = 24,01%
  

• Probability of A occuring = 1 - (1 - 0.3)^4 = 0.7599 = 75.99%
  

I was a physics major in college.  Graduated with 4.0 and multiple academic awards. ;)  Statistics are statistics.  A probability calculator over-complicates based on specific outcomes.  Cumulatively speaking, my calculations were correct.

My point was that gs has the *potential* to do better damage from what I am seeing.  And regardless of specific probabilities, on average given a large quantity of fights cumulatively, the average damage gs would do in that particular scenario is double the damage.  Probabilities of particular outcome are irrelevant to that.

I'm not sure why so many people argue basic percentages.  You aren't the only one.  It's like I could say someone has a 0.00001% chance of winning the state lottery, and yet they have a 3% chance of winning a scratch off.  Meanwhile, some people seem to try to argue that because of RNG, it doesn't matter which one you pick, you have just as much RNG of winning either.  That's simply not the case, yet I have seen MANY people with that kind of logic.

Anyway, until I see some cap stating otherwise, I am assuming someone with 3-4 hits and gs is going to do superior damage from that mastery compared to a wm champion.  I do appreciate you showing me the probability calculator, but again, it is just over-complicating a very simple percentage-based calculation by analyzing specific outcomes.

You're right. GS *can* outperform WM on a given turn.

But it *probably* won't unless the number of attacks is high enough.

AscendantGod said:

Well thanks for trying.

As far as #2, the chance of it triggering is half that of wm.  So wm has a 60% chance, gs has a 30% chance.

With that said, if someone has wm with 1 hit each turn, it is a 60% chance of triggering.  If the in-game description is correct and there is no limiting cap, that means if someone has 4-hits each turn and they have gs, that is a total of 4x30% which comes out to a 120% chance each time of getting a hit.  This means that on average, they would do literally double the damage from gs compared to wm.  That is assuming they don't have some type of cap to it to prevent that though.  No one seems to be able to confirm whether they do or not.

If this math were true, you'd never have a turn without GS procs for characters with 4 hits per turn.

Azathoth said:

If this math were true, you'd never have a turn without GS procs for characters with 4 hits per turn.

Which, anyone who has ever had GS knows simply isn't the case.

AscendGod is wrong.

Don’t pay any attention to his whacky calculations.

The odds for GS to proc is 30%

The odds for GS to not proc is 70%

You have a higher chance that GS will not trigger vs. will trigger.

You see the odds don’t change.

They are 30% & 70% respectively.

The above odds were set to be as such.

What changes is your number of attempts (hits).

You are trying to force an outcome (That GS will proc) by giving yourself extra hits.

The probability is measuring the likelihood of your GS proc after an X number of hits.

MadCookie showed the probability for GS to proc in a 4 hit attack.

The probability is 75.99%

What MadCookie didn’t show was the probability for GS to miss in a 4 hit attack.

The probability is 99.19%

What MadCookie didn’t show was the probability for GS to hit & miss in a 4 hit attack.

The probability is 75.37%

What MadCookie didn’t show was the probability for GS to proc in all 4 attacks.

The probability is 0.0065%

What MadCookie didn’t show was the probability for GS to miss in all 4 attacks.

The probability is 5.76%

MadCookie didn’t show these things because she was probably not trying to “over complicate” the above information.

Over Complicating things is my Middle Name!

If there isn’t an issue going down, There will be when I’m finished with it!

Player J said:

What MadCookie didn’t show was the probability for GS to miss in a 4 hit attack.

The probability is 99.19%

I was a physics major in college, top of my class.  Player J thought it was an arduous process to buy Foli during the foli fusion event.  Dude has been trolling the forums for months now.  I stopped responding to him in another thread when it became clear as day he was trolling there, and he's doing the same thing here.

He can barely do basic math, let alone statistics.  To him, everything is "complicated," including remembering to breathe.  My calculations were rough, but fairly accurate for those unfamiliar with statistics and probabilities.

For those of you who want to argue probabilities and the exact math:

Given: P(A)=0.3 & P(B)=.3

P(A∩B) =     P(A) × P(B)       (probability of both hit 1 (A) and hit 2 (B) both triggering)

=     0.3 × .3

=     0.09

P(A∪B) =     P(A) + P(B) - P(A∩B)   (probability of either hit a (A) or hit 2 (B) triggering)

=     0.3 + .3 - 0.09

=     0.51

This means that for a champion that has 2 hits, they have a very slightly over 50% chance to trigger giant slayer, almost 10% lower than if they chose warmaster.  Hence why people only want to choose giant slayer if they have 3 or more hits.

With 3 or 4 hits, the math gets more complicated.  However, generally speaking, while my numbers previously were rough, generally speaking, someone who has a 4-hit A1 will typically do much better damage than someone with warmaster.

Azathoth said:

AscendantGod said:

Well thanks for trying.

As far as #2, the chance of it triggering is half that of wm.  So wm has a 60% chance, gs has a 30% chance.

With that said, if someone has wm with 1 hit each turn, it is a 60% chance of triggering.  If the in-game description is correct and there is no limiting cap, that means if someone has 4-hits each turn and they have gs, that is a total of 4x30% which comes out to a 120% chance each time of getting a hit.  This means that on average, they would do literally double the damage from gs compared to wm.  That is assuming they don't have some type of cap to it to prevent that though.  No one seems to be able to confirm whether they do or not.

If this math were true, you'd never have a turn without GS procs for characters with 4 hits per turn.

Which, anyone who has ever had GS knows simply isn't the case.

Yea, the math is more complicated than what I made it out to be.  It's of course not a 120% chance.  Apologies that I was oversimplifying the probabilities.  What I was trying to say was that essentially, you *should* always get at least one hit with a 4-hit attack and giant slayer.  It will of course not always be the case, but statistically, you are looking at 4 chances at 30% each chance to get a proc.