Well said.

It's bugging me too, so I try to avoid those threads, before I say what I really mean about them. Such princesses rub me in all the wrong ways... 

lol I am of similar opinion and try to avoid the posts b/c what I have to say would be honest but not helpful.  But op makes a great point, give any one of these babies $1000 to drop on the game and they would just switch from crying no one can get anywhere without paying to crying they spent all there allowance and got no where.

whiteknight hard. This game is one of the most p2w games on the market.

I don't consider myself a knight, but if the princess needs saving, just let me know where you're stuck and what you're working with. 

My sentiment still stands, if you don't understand the game, paying won't win you jack. If you understand the game, you win without paying. We have people on this forum who are living testament of that. 

This game IS pay2win in its core, i dont know whats not to understand there. Accepting it or leaving the game if you dont like it but buying energy, straight up silver for upgrades, new champs books and masteries/awakens instead grinding it for months is pay to win faster than others who don't. if this game isnt pay2win, so diablo immortal isn't. 

Like i said, accept it and still play it or leave if you dont like it, but deny it?

It's like hearding a flock of headless chickens.  How do you round 'em up?

My offer still stands. Like I said, show me where you struggle and show me what you're working with, and we can show you how to win. Otherwise, you're complaining that you have to work harder than those who pay....that's not "pay to win", that's "too lazy to play". 

Exactly!

It's not so much p2w as much as it's pay to save time. I do think there is a pretty big difference. I haven't spent a dime, and I've effectively beaten the game. But I also enjoyed the time I've spent playing. Were there times where I was tempted to hit the buy button? Perhaps. But winning without spending was part of the attraction.

I think most of the complaints I see are not so much people who are unhappy with their ability to progress without spending money, but more people upset with their *lack* of progress *despite* spending money. And in that respect, they are well within their rights to complain - this game does not shy away at all with giving people plenty of opportunities to waste their money.

I don't know Angwil, I am feeling in need of some honesty in some threads that have been popping up recently.........

I think you can achieve most things as a free player. The game is about roster and grinding with grinding possibly being the most important factor.  Your roster can dramatically be improved by paying, and you can grind much more as a whale as well. However both can be done as ftp, albeit much more slowly. 

However when competing in plat or going for G4 in tag? Then i imagine most (not all) of the competitors are whales.

I know there are some f2p players in plat etc and some of them are on this board, but they have generally being playing for 999999 years and clocked up 9 billion hours or whatever.

I do think some of the new 'pay only' equipment sets have moved us more towards a 'top end p2win' scenario as well.

Having said that, most of the posts along the lines of 'omg i cant get out of B1 because it is p2win' are a bit silly and i rarely reply.

What do you mean by pay to win?  What do you consider winning?  If you put a timescale on doing certain elements then yes you can complete those elements quicker if you purchase energy, gear, shards etc. and 'win'.  If you don't consider time a factor you can complete them albeit slower without making any purchases

Can you complete Campaign, Dungeons, Faction Wars, Doom Tower, UNM Demon Lord, Hydra, Arena (to G5) Tag to S4 maybe G1 without making any purchases - Yes, you'll take a long time, do a lot of grinding but you can do it.  Do you need to get to Arena Platinum, Tag above G1 to 'win' - not really, that is where the whales and spenders hang out.

The game is FTP, if you decide to spend you don't spend to 'win' you're spending to speed up your progress through the game - which by definition takes some of the challenges out of the game that can make it appealing to FTP players

As you say it depends on the definition of 'winning'

Personally i am ftp- i spent £20 when i first signed up but havent spent a penny since. But i have been playing a long time now (2 years) and played quite a lot.

The non-competitive stuff, no problem, have done all DT rotations and all the secret rooms, and can 1 key brutal hydra  and should have ramantu soon

Competitive stuff however? i am G2 tag (i flit between G1 and G2 ) but i am against players with a much more extensive roster than me, everyone has empowered rotos etc. 

I am at a ceiling that can only be breached by spending a tonne of dosh or playing another god knows how many years. Added to which overpowered forge sets are now appearing (pay only)

So while some of the posts do feel silly, to me right now it feels 'p2win'. But the game needs to make a profit and need to incentivise people to spend so i understand it.

Another way of looking at it is i have simply played too long and need to move on to something else...a few clanmates that i started gaming at the same time as - have done just that lately.

Agreed, but do you need to progress to those higher levels in the Arenas to consider that you have won?

You've completed all the other areas, proved you can 'win' without paying (apart from your £20 😀)  I'd consider when you get Ramantu you have totally won, and deserve appreciation and self pride for that

BTW there is a game based on Raid, not as good but it's still new, Watcher of Realms

thats the problem with a society that mostly belive in MILLIONS OF YEARS stuff. oh its not pay to win. its only pay to get faster.

what u earn 10 dollars a week? well thats not poor if you consider that majority of people on this world earn a whole million USD in theyre lifetime. sooooo

its only speed the process up!!!! its not that time is the most valuable thing to mortal beeings but hey. LMAO

Why ores? what is the point of ores? other than to keep the player login everyday and do chores? How do I do war everyday when heroes sleep all the time?

Why 3 types of Ores? what the point?

Why different rarity of Hero equipment? is the Epic better than the Common, or are they just more rare? what is the point of having them only obtainable in certain event/ time frame. CoC is a strategy game, not a collecting game.

https://omegle.onl/

Supercell need to make money? sure. I mean, that is why the goddam gold pass and skins exist. Are those not enough? Why now event also has a paid pass?

https://xender.vip/

I'm fine with Pay to Progress (P2P), that's fair, you paid to skip time or to has cosmetics, but if they pass the line and pay to get the upper hand in gameplay or in war, that's a bad move. Right now we don't know how long will the epic gear return and how much gems will it cost. Its still possible for F2P to get, I know that, but as if level up heroes wasn't take long enough, now you gotta grind for ores also