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Can we talk about Fortus

Can we talk about Fortus

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29 окт. 2022, 00:5729.10.22
13.02.21
823

Can we talk about Fortus

The Hell Hades team did a video on this which you can view here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5VusRODb5Y), but I have also been doing my own research on it.  I did this because I went in for the 80 void shard guaranteed legendary, so was curious as to what Plarium would actually do to "fix" the champion.

As everyone knows, when Fortus was released he was very underpowered.  Plarium acknowledged this and said that the damage output was not what they had planned, and "fixed" it with the most recent patch.  First, I just want to make sure we all know what was the issue, and what was fixed.  

Specifically we are referring to the A3 - Astral Terrors, and according to the skill description the damage of the skill is supposed to increase by 10% each time a fear/true fear debuff is placed on an enemy.  The base damage multiplier for this skill is 3.5.

The way that the old damage was calculated was:

(0.1 * DebuffCount * 3.5) * Defense * BookBonus

The way that they patched it was

(0.1 * DebuffCount + 3.5) * Defense * BookBonus 

Essentially the change was to add the DebuffCount to the damage multiplier, instead of multiplying it.  This may sound confusing at first, but to truely understand this change you can look at the below numbers

In the old way, the damage multiplier of 3.5 was being multiplied by (0.1 * DebuffCount).  So at 1 debuff, this meant that the final damage multiplier was 0.35.  So the final damage done was effectively Defense * 0.35, which is ridiculously small.  Each fear that went out increased the damage multiplier by 0.35, so you needed 10 fears out to get the multiplier back up to it's original 3.5.

The new way leaves the base as it is and then adds the fear count to it.  This means that with 1 fear out there, the defense is now multiplied by 3.6, which is the equivilient to what 10 fears were under the old formula.  Each subsequent fear then increases the base multiplier by 0.1, which means that it is incrementing slower than the old formula, but it is starting from a higher base now.

To illustrate this, look at the below table.  The books value of 1 means he is unbooked and not getting any damage bonus from that source.  This is also assuming his base defense of 1387 at level 60.  As you can see, at 1 debuff count he was doing 485 damage, and now he is doing 4993 damage.  You can also see that each debuff count was increasing the old base by 0.35, whereas now it is increasing it by 0.1.  At 15 debuffs, the old formula has bypassed the base damage increase, being 5.25 compared to the new 5.0

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The challenge that I have with this is that neither of the formulas really increase the damage by 10% as per the description.  We can actually use Soulless, which is another defensive based nuker with an A3 that increases in damage by 10% for each debuff.  In some elements, both of these champions should have the same linear progression in defense, but both of them have different damage calculations.

Soulless's A3 damage multiplier is 4.9, and it's calculation is

Defense * 4.9 * (1 + (0.1 * Debuff)) * BookBonus

At it's most simple form, this can effectively boil down to Defense * 4.9 * 1.X, where X is the number of debuffs.  For example, if there are 5 debuffs on the target then it is Defense * 4.9 * 1.5.

Straight away you can see a few differences:

  • First is that Soulless's multiplier higher by 1.4 than Fortus.  This means that Fortus needs to have 14 fears out before he will do the same amount of damage as Soulless with 0 debuffs out, assuming both have the same defense.
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  • The second is that Soulless's total damage is being multiplied by the amount of debuffs, instead of just the damage multiplier.  For Fortus, his base damage is effectively increasing by 10% each Fear, which in turn is an increase of about 2% of total damage (see above table).  For Soulless, the base multiplier stays the same, and then the final damage is increased by the amount of debuffs

In the above screenshot, at 10 Debuffs on the target, Soulless is doing 14K damage.  To reach this same damage level, Fortus would need to have 63 Fears placed:

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In my mind, the current damage formula for Fortus is too weak, and not reflective of what the skill description says.  It should just be changed to be the same as Soulless, which would make it more consistent with the the damage multipliers for other champions.  Under this proposal, the damage would look this the below, with Fortus reaching the same damage potential after 19 debuffs are out

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I actually do think both of these champions are very similar:

  • Soulless's A3 is on a 4 turn cooldown when booked.  Fortus is on a 40% chance to trigger, so it effectively becomes a 2.2 turn cooldown
  • Soulless has a provoke CC mechanic, and Fortus has a Fear CC mechanic.  The former is a 100% CC mechanic, while the latter is a 65% CC mechanic.  Soulless does win the CC form those as he also has a 50% Stun on his A1, and Provoke on his A2
  • Both are defense based champions and increase their damage based on the amount of debuffs.  Soulless has a higher base defense (1421 vs 1387) but a lower Crit Damage (50% vs 63%).  Soulless also has a higher damage multiplier at 4.9, compared to 3.5 for Fortus
  • Soulless would be better in Arena or short battles, as he can get his max damage faster, while Fortus would be better suited for longer battles.
  • Both are void legendaries


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29 окт. 2022, 04:0729.10.22
29 окт. 2022, 04:08(отредактировано)
25.06.20
6762

Okay. WTF.

So, my old analysis of this champ was an extremely strong sleeper hit. Previously, he was literally the only champ who scaled infinitely. Previously, he was one of only three champs (including him), who could truly outpace a strong go-second reviver team.

Now? As Rose appropriately mentioned, his scaling on debuffs is *significantly* curtailed. Nobody cares about a 3.5X nuke. That's utterly irrelevant. What people care about is a nuke that can actually kill people off. And that takes a much higher multiplier. 

Yes, theoretically, his scaling still does go infinitely. But while previously, it was scaling off of a 3.5x multiplier, now it's scaling off a 1x multiplier. So, sure, you gave people a nice candy to throw on CC videos. But that's completely irrelevant.

I am very happy I didn't end up going for him now. This "buff" is a terrible, terrible nerf.

29 окт. 2022, 05:0629.10.22
25.06.20
6762

Fortunately, Plarium, the answer is simple! Just add a 1!

((1 + DebuffCounter * 0.1) * 3.5). Done! Now he scales properly off an appropriate multiplier, AND starts off flashy for the CCs!

29 окт. 2022, 11:1829.10.22
29 окт. 2022, 11:20(отредактировано)
13.02.21
823
kramaswamy.kr

Fortunately, Plarium, the answer is simple! Just add a 1!

((1 + DebuffCounter * 0.1) * 3.5). Done! Now he scales properly off an appropriate multiplier, AND starts off flashy for the CCs!

Agreed.  The (1 + DebuffCounter * 0.1) * 3.5 fix is what I am proposing too, as it would make it match the current damage calculation of Soulless, which is 

Defense * 4.9 * (1 + (0.1 * Debuff)) * BookBonus 

We are not looking to re-invent the wheel here.  Just use a known working damage formula and maintain consistency within the game

For me the biggest thing is that the 10% damage increase with each fear just isn't true.  Both Soulless and Fortus have a "10% damage increase from debuff" mechanic.  Both should have the same damage formula

harleQuinnModerator
29 окт. 2022, 12:0729.10.22
24.02.19
8019

Thanks folks for the detailed analysis of the change, and the potential typo in his damage formula. I will send this up the chain.

From what I saw on the intent of the change, I don't think he was intended to do much less damage. 

Will keep you posted.

29 окт. 2022, 22:1429.10.22
13.02.21
823
harleQuinn

Thanks folks for the detailed analysis of the change, and the potential typo in his damage formula. I will send this up the chain.

From what I saw on the intent of the change, I don't think he was intended to do much less damage. 

Will keep you posted.

Thanks Quinn, much appreciated

30 окт. 2022, 10:3530.10.22
17
harleQuinn

Thanks folks for the detailed analysis of the change, and the potential typo in his damage formula. I will send this up the chain.

From what I saw on the intent of the change, I don't think he was intended to do much less damage. 

Will keep you posted.

Thanks Queen, much appreciated

30 окт. 2022, 12:0730.10.22
19.12.19
6514

Did I miss a promotion announcement to Queen?


Grats queen Quinn!  :)


harleQuinnModerator
30 окт. 2022, 13:0530.10.22
24.02.19
8019
Trips

Did I miss a promotion announcement to Queen?


Grats queen Quinn!  :)


Hahaha :D

Ive yet to see it, but maybe the promotion went to my spam folder.....

30 окт. 2022, 13:5330.10.22
08.07.19
996
harleQuinn

Hahaha :D

Ive yet to see it, but maybe the promotion went to my spam folder.....

let's officialize it then.

here, have a tiara.

i


harleQuinnModerator
30 окт. 2022, 17:3430.10.22
24.02.19
8019

Hahahaha :D

2 нояб. 2022, 16:1802.11.22
20.04.22
1

any news on the fix for fortus yet?

harleQuinnModerator
2 нояб. 2022, 16:5902.11.22
24.02.19
8019
lucifeared

any news on the fix for fortus yet?

I have no news at this time on even if he's being changed for sure. You'll likely see any notifications on potential changes in the news section here or on discord first.

26 нояб. 2022, 23:1626.11.22
17


i

This is a real Fortus. See time,  i want just test it.

After 44 min, it happen more of 40 fear, frim Cardiel and Fortus. After more 40 Fear a secret skill have produced 8192 damage. My Fortus, have 5600 defense, 270% damage and 15 crit rate. But for your formula, after more 40 fear this is result.

26 нояб. 2022, 23:1726.11.22
17

This champ is broken.

26 нояб. 2022, 23:1926.11.22
26 нояб. 2022, 23:19(отредактировано)
17

Super Trash champ, and i think 80 Void shards ...

24 фев. 2023, 20:2724.02.23
11.01.20
1

Any updates to this or is this champ going to remain broken? 

15 март 2023, 13:0315.03.23
05.06.22
433

After over a year of playing raid, deep into mercy, I just pulled... Fortus! My first ever void legendary. Yaaaay.

Please fix him and give him an actual place in the game. Some content. Any content.

15 март 2023, 13:1515.03.23
25.06.20
6762

He has a place, for sure. Put him on your arena defense team, with a team of three other super-tanky people. The longer fight duration is actually a positive for that role.

16 май 2023, 11:2416.05.23
16 май 2023, 11:31(отредактировано)
17
Urlibu FTP

After over a year of playing raid, deep into mercy, I just pulled... Fortus! My first ever void legendary. Yaaaay.

Please fix him and give him an actual place in the game. Some content. Any content.

No, sorry. Fortus is very s...

If you want lose in arena then place Fortus. His kit, moltiplier and base defense are problems. This champion require a complete rework.

For a Nuker, 1387 defense is low (souless have 1421, Staltus 1454, Ragash 1443, Harima 1531 ...)

His moltiplier are low. Think Souless, to has same damage, Fortus require 14 (minimun) fear/true fear. In Arena Battle you NEED 14 FEAR/TRUE FEAR to have decent damage!!!

If Fortus place this debuf, cannot crit enemies, so Fortus cannot place his debuff.

Who can put it in its place? From Ayumilove: https://ayumilove.net/raid-shadow-legends-fear-skill-champions/ . In this list, seriusly, UDK, Jack, Skarg, Conelia, Morrigane, Ma'Shalled ...

Now: Of these, who would you put in defense of the arena, in a TANK TEAM ??

In most case, every skill fear require 3 turn CD and remember 14!!!!! Fear/True fear to for a decent damage.

Also, Fortus HAS 40% to unlock his A3, when placed a fear debuff (like Mortu).


Plarium in this case, have trolled his players!


This champ is really s....

harleQuinnModerator
17 май 2023, 19:4817.05.23
24.02.19
8019

I'm told he is currently working as intended, but I'll put it back on the feedback loop.