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Arena speed tuning

Arena speed tuning

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May 18, 2021, 14:3705/18/21
06/25/20
6636

Arena speed tuning

Hey all,

Confused as to how TM boosts work, WRT other team cutting in.

My team (speed in brackets):

Arbiter (305)

Kymar (230)

Nethril (188) 

Big'Un (176)


Arbiter lead should further boost those numbers to:

Arbiter (305 + 110 * 0.3 = 336)

Kymar (230 + 103 * 0.3 = 260)

Nethril (188 + 94 * 0.3 = 216)

Big'Un (176 + 104 * 0.3 = 207)


Arbiter A3 should do the following:

Kymar (260 * 1.3 = 338)

Nethril (216 * 1.3 = 280)

Big'Un (207 * 1.3 = 269)


By my math, after Arbiter A3, Kymar should immediately go next. How is it, then, that the other team occasionally gets a turn before Kymar? To note - I had previously 246 speed on Kymar, and still faced the same problem. 

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May 18, 2021, 15:0705/18/21
04/14/20
1343

According to the arena speed calculator, it seems your Kymar is marginally too slow, he should have 236 base speed to not get cut it on. 

But if you say it has also happened when he was at 246 speed, would that be because you were facing opponents that get TM boosts from your buffs? According to the same source, those opponents are Maulie, Khoronar, Yoshi and of course Valkyrie. Once you start applying debuffs or critical hits to opponents, literally anyone could be getting TM boosts from their masteries, but for Kymar's turn after Arbi's A3, the masteries shouldn't have any effect and it's only those champions' passive abilities that can interrupt. 

May 18, 2021, 15:2705/18/21
06/25/20
6636
L9753

According to the arena speed calculator, it seems your Kymar is marginally too slow, he should have 236 base speed to not get cut it on. 

But if you say it has also happened when he was at 246 speed, would that be because you were facing opponents that get TM boosts from your buffs? According to the same source, those opponents are Maulie, Khoronar, Yoshi and of course Valkyrie. Once you start applying debuffs or critical hits to opponents, literally anyone could be getting TM boosts from their masteries, but for Kymar's turn after Arbi's A3, the masteries shouldn't have any effect and it's only those champions' passive abilities that can interrupt. 

Yeah I'm aware of champs like Valk - this happens even on "normal" teams. I'll try switching back to the 246 speed and seeing if I can find an example of this happening.

May 19, 2021, 03:1005/19/21
May 19, 2021, 03:16(edited)
05/13/19
2326

-  A  few  of  the  numbers  you  calculated  have  errors.

(Arbiter  305  +  110  *  0.3  =  338)

-  The  way  you  are  trying  to  approach Speed  tuning  is  an  error.

(You  are  not  facting  in  Movement  Tick)

-  The  website  I  love  using  for  my  Arena  Speed  Tuning  needs  has  contracted  an  error.

(Deadwood  Jedi  Website)  

(It  might  be  same  website  L9753  uses)


Obviously,  I  have  been  playing  this  game  to  long.

It  allows  me  to  see  all  these  errors.


I  can't be  bothered  trying  to  fix  &  explain  them   all  because it  would  take  to  much  time.

Clan  vs.  Clan  is  happening my  team  is  trying  to  win  for  first  time.


The  short  version answer  is  the  following:

Your  whole  team  is  to  slow.


Arbiter  with  305  Speed

-  If  you  do  Arbiter  A3  move,  

Then  Kymar  will  need  254  Speed

-  If  you  do  Kymar  A2  move,

Then  Nethril  will  need  256  Speed

-  If  you  do  Nethril  A1  move,

Then  Big  Un  will  need  253  Speed


Alternative move  for  Kymar:


Arbiter  with  305  Speed

-  If  you  do  Arbiter  A3  move,

Then   Kymar  will  need  254  Speed

-  If  you  do  Kymar  A3  move,

Then  Nethril  will  need  221  Speed

-  If  you  do  Nethril  A1  move,

Then  Big  Un  will  need  218  Speed  


Obviously,  you  will  use  30%  Speed  Aura.

You  can  use  Prince  Kymar  or  Arbiter.


Obviously,  Nethril  will  not  do  A1  move  in  the  fight.

I  just  showed  the  A1  move  so  you  can  see  Big  Un  Speed  Tune  with  out  Nethril  moves  effecting  the  fight.


Obviously,  The  speeds  I  am  telling  you  are  not  factoring  outside  issues  such  as  Valkyrie or  Masteries.

May 19, 2021, 12:4405/19/21
10/15/20
2041

I recognized something that surprised me about arena speed. I made two fights vs. the same opponent. In one fight I started, for a test, with the A1 on my Apothecary. My Deacon still was the second one to move, Screenshot no. 1 shows the situation.

In the second fight I started with Apo's turnmeter boost, Screenshot no. 2 shows that situation as it's Deacons move. Indeed there is a difference in the turnmeter of my other teammembers, Sinesha and Ghostborn. But the turnmeter of the 4 opponents are exactly the same. In my understanding, when Apo makes his A1, and the time goes by after that, the turnmeter of the opponent's should have more time to fill untill it's Deacons turn compared to the situation when Apo makes his turnmeter boost and speedbuff. The turnmeter of the opponent's team should be lower in situation no. 2, but it isn't.

My understanding so far was, the speedbar fills over time, let's say one speed = 1 cm of turnbar per second (or whatever, the numbers are only taken as example). But how can their turnmeter be at the exact same position, if I use a speedbuff or not?


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May 19, 2021, 13:2005/19/21
06/25/20
6636

@Skadi - that's super bizarre, got no explanation for that.

@Player J - will give that a try. will need to dig up some more speed somewhere, since I'm closer to 245 now. thanks!

May 20, 2021, 13:5905/20/21
May 20, 2021, 14:00(edited)
05/13/19
2326

@Skadi 

The  Enemy  team  speed  should  remain  the  same  because  from  their  point  of  view  nothing  has  changed.


Every  time  a  hero  moves  -  A  tick  is  added.

Your  Apoth  +  Deacon  have  moved  so  they  should  have  2  ticks.

Apoth  A1  or  A3  doesn't  effect  the  enemy.


One  way  the  enemy  team  turn  meter  would  be  effected  is  if  your  Apothecary had  Evil  Eye  Mastery.

Evil  Eye  Mastery  can  reduce  enemy  hero  turn  meter  when  you  do  your  A1  move.


If  no  Masteries are  being  activated,  The  speeds  for  enemy  team  should  remain  same.

May 20, 2021, 14:1205/20/21
04/14/20
1343

Skadi - what are the speeds on your Apo and Deacon, though? If Deacon has very nearly the same speed as Apo, it makes sense that by the time of his turn, you wouldn't see any noticeable difference in the opponents' TM bars in either case. If there is a more significant difference, then indeed I don't get it. 

May 20, 2021, 14:2305/20/21
May 20, 2021, 14:37(edited)
10/15/20
2041
Player J

@Skadi 

The  Enemy  team  speed  should  remain  the  same  because  from  their  point  of  view  nothing  has  changed.


Every  time  a  hero  moves  -  A  tick  is  added.

Your  Apoth  +  Deacon  have  moved  so  they  should  have  2  ticks.

Apoth  A1  or  A3  doesn't  effect  the  enemy.


One  way  the  enemy  team  turn  meter  would  be  effected  is  if  your  Apothecary had  Evil  Eye  Mastery.

Evil  Eye  Mastery  can  reduce  enemy  hero  turn  meter  when  you  do  your  A1  move.


If  no  Masteries are  being  activated,  The  speeds  for  enemy  team  should  remain  same.

All turnmeter bars start at 0. They fill up a certain ammount, let's say 1 % per timeunit (whatever, let's say seconds) per speed. 100 speed = turnmeterbar filled in one second. 200 speed = turnmeter bar filled in 0,5 seconds. 50 speed = turnmeterbar filled in 2 seconds.

My champ has 200 speed, their champ has 100 speed. Picture taken when my champ has his turn: turnmeter bar of opponent should be filled to 50%. Same situation, but my champ has 300 speed now instead of 200. At the turn of my champ the turnmeterbar of the opponent should be filled by 33%.


/edit: 


May 20, 2021, 14:2805/20/21
10/15/20
2041
L9753

Skadi - what are the speeds on your Apo and Deacon, though? If Deacon has very nearly the same speed as Apo, it makes sense that by the time of his turn, you wouldn't see any noticeable difference in the opponents' TM bars in either case. If there is a more significant difference, then indeed I don't get it. 

Speed difference between them is something about 40. I think that should make a diiefernce, especially as Apo fills Deacon's tunrmeter.

May 20, 2021, 15:2905/20/21
05/13/19
2326

@Skadi

What  is  Apothecary +  Deacon  exact  speeds?

I  think  enemy  has  higher  speed  vs.  100


I  think  Enemy  Doompriest has Speed closer  to  your  Deacon.

Look  at  the  picture  more  closely,  you  can  see  enemy  Doompriest is  very  close  to  having  a  turn.


For  example:

You  Deacon  might  have  160  speed

Enemy  Doompriest might  have  157  speed  I.E.  a  few  speed  less


May 20, 2021, 15:4305/20/21
10/15/20
2041
Player J

@Skadi

What  is  Apothecary +  Deacon  exact  speeds?

I  think  enemy  has  higher  speed  vs.  100


I  think  Enemy  Doompriest has Speed closer  to  your  Deacon.

Look  at  the  picture  more  closely,  you  can  see  enemy  Doompriest is  very  close  to  having  a  turn.


For  example:

You  Deacon  might  have  160  speed

Enemy  Doompriest might  have  157  speed  I.E.  a  few  speed  less


The numbers 300, 200 and 100 speed where of course only taken for example. I know the enemy team is not running on base speed 100 in arena. 😉

Apo 271, Deacon 235 (both without Deacon's Aura taken into account).

I really don't get it. In pic one I didn't use the turnmeter buff. Deacon is faster than Doompriest (otherwise he couldn't go before her). But in pic 2 she still has a full turnmeter, even when Apo boosted Deacon's turnmeter by 15%. 

And what about the enemies Sir Nicholas? According to pic one he has similar speed as my Sinesha, something around 180. And in pic 2 his turnmeter is at the same position as in pic 1 when it's Deacon's turn.

May 20, 2021, 20:2405/20/21
05/13/19
2326
Skadi

The numbers 300, 200 and 100 speed where of course only taken for example. I know the enemy team is not running on base speed 100 in arena. 😉

Apo 271, Deacon 235 (both without Deacon's Aura taken into account).

I really don't get it. In pic one I didn't use the turnmeter buff. Deacon is faster than Doompriest (otherwise he couldn't go before her). But in pic 2 she still has a full turnmeter, even when Apo boosted Deacon's turnmeter by 15%. 

And what about the enemies Sir Nicholas? According to pic one he has similar speed as my Sinesha, something around 180. And in pic 2 his turnmeter is at the same position as in pic 1 when it's Deacon's turn.

Think  of  the  situation from  Doompriest  Side.


Battle  Starts:

Enemy  Apothecary moves

Doompriest  gains  1  tick


Enemy  Deacon  moves

Doompriests  gains  another  tick  (2  ticks  in  all)


------------------------------------------------------

None  of  the  moves  Apothecary or  Deacon  do  effect  Doom  Priest  Turn  Meter.


Apothecary  can  do  A1  move  or  A2  move  or  A3  move

Doompriest  will  still  only  gain  1  tick.


How  is  Apothecary effecting  Doompriest?

When  you  think  about  it,  He  isn't effecting  her  at  all.


--------------------------------------------------

Apothecary  only  impacts  his  own  team.

This  is  why  enemy  team  speed  is  exact  same in  both  pictures.


Apothecary  move  will  only  effect  your  team.

The  Speed  Buff  +  Turn  Meter  Fill  will  impact  Deacon,  Sinesha,  &  Ghostborn.


The  Speeds  which  are  different in  picture  are  Sinesha  &  Ghostborn.

Deacon  speed  will  be  different too,  but  you  will  not  see  it  till  after  his  turn  ends.

You  took  picture  during  his  turn  so  that  is  why  you  cant  see  it.




May 20, 2021, 21:2005/20/21
10/15/20
2041

The way you describe ticks doesn't fit to the way Plarium described it in their video I embedded in my posting above. According to them, a tick is a kind of temporal measuring unit. 

In the video at 03:18: "In the start of the battle it's tick zero." I would add: for both teams!

"Both their turnmeters are at zero. Now, tick one, their turnmeters fill." [Graphic shown, where turnmeter of champion A is filled approximatly to the half, champion B's turnmeter a quarter.]

"Notice that champion A's turnmeter fills roughly twice as much as champion B's. This is, because it scales linearily with the champions speed stats." [In their example champion A has 200 speed, Champion B 100.]