TDLR

If you are f2p low spender, and use almost all energy to grind your levels/masteries/gear/ascending, it will take about 31 days to accomplish. This ignores accessories, skill books, the fact the champion might not be good, silver cost, inflexibility of changing redoing masteries, and a few other things. Even if you spend money on minimax packs, there is minimal help.

Btw, Joinme, if that is your response, it reinforces Plarium's stance of not doing anything. 

Everything you said is true except for the below statement:

"Plarium is the worst video game company I have ever experienced."

Plarium is a company.

Companies in general seek to make quality products to sell to the customers.

This is what the game does on a daily bases.

They get a team of designers to create a New Hero (New Product).

They try to build up hype for the (New Products).

They try to get people to spend money to acquire the (New Products).

The same process happens with everything in the game whether it is New Battle Pass, New Pack Offers, New Gear, etc.

Money drives everything.

The customers are the ones with the "Money"

If the game doesn't make a lot of money, The game is forced to change the prices to try and generate money.

If the game makes tons of money, The game can continue doing what they are doing or raise the prices.

The Company wants to raise the price sky high to make tons of money.

The Customers want to lower the price really low to spend less money

And that is the constant battle which rages on in this game.

If you are unhappy, Don't spend money till they do something which makes you happy.

I am not Plarium. My response does not tell what Plarium is. 

Base on your TLDR, I can say that this is the first time you play this type of game. If not, you should know that what Plarium is doing is typical on gotcha games. There maybe a much better company, I will not argue with that. 

And if you say that spending money gives minimal help is true, then it is good news for f2p players. 

rcw said:

TDLR

If you are f2p low spender, and use almost all energy to grind your levels/masteries/gear/ascending, it will take about 31 days to accomplish. This ignores accessories, skill books, the fact the champion might not be good, silver cost, inflexibility of changing redoing masteries, and a few other things. Even if you spend money on minimax packs, there is minimal help.

Btw, Joinme, if that is your response, it reinforces Plarium's stance of not doing anything. 

Actually the statement, "Plarium is the worst video game company I have ever experienced."

Is 100% true. Notice I am talking about my experience and my opinion. It is 100% true that it is my opinion that Plarium is the worst video game I have experienced. This does NOT make it a fact that Plarium is the worst video game company. I qualified it as my opinion (implicitly) and experience (explicitly).

Your statements about companies existing to make money are true. Not going to argue that. However, their model is more extreme, by a wide margin, than any other company that I have experience, and thus, I provided my reasoning on my opinion on why it is the worst I have experienced.

JoinME said:

I am not Plarium. My response does not tell what Plarium is. 

Base on your TLDR, I can say that this is the first time you play this type of game. If not, you should know that what Plarium is doing is typical on gotcha games. There maybe a much better company, I will not argue with that. 

And if you say that spending money gives minimal help is true, then it is good news for f2p players. 

rcw said:

TDLR

If you are f2p low spender, and use almost all energy to grind your levels/masteries/gear/ascending, it will take about 31 days to accomplish. This ignores accessories, skill books, the fact the champion might not be good, silver cost, inflexibility of changing redoing masteries, and a few other things. Even if you spend money on minimax packs, there is minimal help.

Btw, Joinme, if that is your response, it reinforces Plarium's stance of not doing anything. 

Never said you were plarium. My last statement was meant to imply that if players don't care, then there is no reason for Plarium to care.

As for other gacha games, there are numerous examples of these types of games that are much better for low spenders. The point is that extremeness of how they do it.

Stay long enough around and you will see that no matter how hard player base complains (regular player base here or content creators, rageing or giveing constructive criticism) they do not care. And I mean they don't care at all. To the "zero f@ck given" point. 

At this stage you will be presented with two choices - take it or leave. Stay in game, play how it is and don't put any hopes for changes. If there's any - then good. Or just uninstall it and move to another game. 

Since your quick analys didn't meant to be any sort of question, my post isn't meant to be answer either. Take it as "quick explanation". 

*edit - the last night game was updated and presented the news of that new tournament addition. The last part of the pach note finished with something like: "don't hesitate to go to our forum and tell us what you think" That was the hardest and genuine "lol" I had in a long time. The quality of that sarcasum is top noch! 

Daering, I have been around a while. Got the Lordly Legionary guy on two of my accounts, I think I started in October. 

I agree, they won't care, until it hurts their bottomline. I am skeptical, but I am hoping the current negativity of the more successful streamers helps positively affect the game.

There was some majior backlash around Dracogate, there was some sort of content creators... hm, how to put it in English.. revolt by not paying for some time and constant complains everywhere - here, Discord, YouTube.

Their Google Play rating droped over time, their big content creators criticisized them on daily basis for how long, half an year? and nothing worked. With that large player base there is no way they can see any considerable drop in sales. 

The sad part is - it will take so little efford from them to make Raid the best game out there. And still they are not willing to do it. 

That's why at this point I buried all hopes and enjoy the game as it is and that makes me feel better than when i do cared. And the fact that I didn't spend single peny makes me feel even better. 

Obviously we can all agree that this game has abnormally high prices on everything. It is pretty crazy how little you usually get for e.g. 50 EUR/USD, knowing that for the same price you could buy an entire newly released computer game, or several months of subscription to an MMORPG. And even the better deals, such as the Battle Pass, are still more expensive than in other games of this kind. 

That being said, your analysis on developing a new legendary is seriously exaggerated. 

Most importantly, you can find out quite quickly how useful this champion is going to be; obviously you can start by looking him up at one of the champion analysis websites such as Ayumilove's, or check out what youtube creators have to say about him. And you can test him for yourself in something lower level, even with limited leveling and mediocre gear, to see how the AI functions and how hard the various abilities hit. So if it's a poor legendary, you only have yourself to blame if you fully develop him before realizing that. 

Then if you do want to fully develop him, most of the XP grind is for the last 30 or so levels at six stars. But by that time, the champion should be more than good enough to already use in minotaur 15, in the potion keeps and potentially in your dungeons. So the energy cost of the masteries, ascension and to some extent gear overlaps with the leveling energy cost. And of course, along the way you will get plenty of XP brews, which will also cut down significantly on the amount of XP farming you need to do. 

To L9753

On content creators/lists, I'll just give one example of how that can be misleading: Ayumilove (your pick) has Baron as an A tier champion, with a 5* clan boss rating, Hell Hades has Baron as the 79th best legendary making him a D tier rating I guess and a 2 star clan boss rating, chosen has him with 109th overall rating (including all characters) and a 5 out of 10 on clan boss, so like 2.5. When I first started playing this game I was so excited that I got frostbringer because a few sites including ayumilove had her as a top champion. She is not a top champion and Ayumilove now has a C rating on her. She hasn't been nerfed, she just wasn't that good. Point is, it took me about 30 seconds to find wildly different views on an legendary champion.

i am actually not overstating the cost on getting the legendary to 60 and booked. First you have to get the 5 rank 5 characters to get the lego to rank 6, which is 25 rank 4 (5 to 40 and 20 rank 4 level 1 to ascend) and the thirties, etc. I have done the calculations, and the majority of the xp is spent on leveling the "chickens." As you mentioned Ayumilove, go look at how much energy it costs to do this. Their calculations assume you 0 loss from a carry champion. Remember, we need 5 rank 40 characters plus another 20 rank 4 level 1 characters, that means we need 100 rank 3 charaters (75 level 1 and 25 level 30). You have to level the other toons. That is where the energy is spent.

Leveling characters with XP brews is a terrible methodology. It costs 7000 for 18,750 xp for using the same affinity brew. Your point would be valid, only if the brews were free. It is roughly 3 mill xp to get to 60 from rank 5 level 1. That is over 1 million silver and over 150 brews. That's assuming you have that many. Doing an analysis of Brutal 12-3, I have found about 70-72% of the times you get an item instead of shard/brew/champion and that item on average is worth 8,400 and 10,550 for about 19,000. That is roughly 580 runs, or 4,640 energy to FUND the use of those brews assuming 100% drop rate of items. You can use ayumilove to see the cost of the brews it would be 1,113,200 silver from brews for doing all rank 5 and 6 to max level:

https://ayumilove.net/raid-shadow-legends-champion-leveling-guide/

Yeah, you're not exactly disproving my points as you seem to think you are... 

Clearly you are very familiar with the various tier lists / champion analyses out there, so you are sure to know beforehand if the champion is unanimously considered great, or unanimously considered poor, or if they're more debatable like your example. Of course, the value of the champion depends also on what other champions you already have and which role you are considering to use them for, so in the end you have to make the decision yourself, but most of the information required you could already get from those websites / videos. 

I certainly haven't bothered to check your exact energy calculations, but I saw you adding up the energy cost for each thing separately, when in reality some of it would overlap if you use your partially leveled champion to farm the ascension potions / masteries / gear. If you did already take that into account, okay, then forget I said anything. 

L9753

I have not disproved my points about the lists. I proved that these lists can be very different. You have to remember you don't control which legendaries you get. My main accounts last legendaries are Rhazin (fused), Foli, Elder Skarg, and Brystophus. Two of them have universal opinions, Rhazin is very good and Bystophus is very bad. But what about Foli and Elder Skarg? What about the rest of my roster? Do I have another 4 hit a1 like Foli does? If I don't does that make him more viable? Leech seems good, do I have a leech character other than him? All of these things means that lists in general are only helpful, not definitive.

I don't want this next thing to sound as harsh as it might seem, but this was your quote "That being said, your analysis on developing a new legendary is seriously exaggerated."  and it is not. It was an offhand remark that was stated as fact.

Btw The overlap is minimal on the potions run, because the xp is so minimal, and you can what have 2-3 chickens. It really depends on the quality of the account. There are people that need 1 toon to clear a dungeon so can use 4 chickens there are others that need all 5, and every variance in between. And it's slooooow doing that. I run most of those dungeons with 2-3 chickens and its like 1.5k on a non double xp.

As for the brews, only deep spenders would blow through brews like that and didn't think you meant that. I just wanted to point out that I was using highly efficient resource numbers, the silver cost was left out, but if you do brews (i call them negative value, because the energy spent to over the cost of silver to use 1 brew generates more xp than the brew does if the enerygy was spent on the campaign) you have to do silver as well. Leveling and gearing toons costs silver. 

I don't quote understand how those differences of certain sites or content creators tier list relates to the opinion of Raid being poorly managed, which was the original idea of that thread. 

i agree with your analysis and disagree with what plarium is doing with his otherwise fun game. i personally don't understand why everyone is still so nice to plarium when talking about the absolute horseshit they do in this game. i am mostly indifferent to plarium in general, but it angers me to see the bullshit prices on those garbage offers every time i go into the game or view the store.

the main reason it angers me is because we know that plarium knows that we know that they know it is complete bullshit. they are selling 2k gems in the store for $70, but at the same time the daily gem pack that has 2k gems in it is like $12. they know they are cheating us and they don't care. since there are a few millionaires constantly buying it, they don't care about 99% of their playerbase. the actual players of this game.

i don't care if they want to take advantage of the fact that some people want to spend a lot of money in this game. the problem is that there aren't any decent options for free to play players or low spenders, in a free to play game. the insignificant pieces of shit that are festering in the store for $12 aren't decent options. those options make it slightly more bearable.

if it wasn't for covid19 i wouldn't have even gotten back on this game. though one of the reasons i was able to come back is because i am interested in seeing how some of their whales and content creators will turn on the game over time and leave it. it was very interesting to see a couple of people have their accounts completely crunched.

i believe that most free to play or low spenders will become massively bored in the game after obtaining arbiter, because there just isn't anything else to do after that. i myself am coming very close to obtaining arbiter.
i know someone in my clan who has had the misfortune of pulling arbiter from a shard when he was around lvl 40. for him it was fun at first to crush arena teams, but he has been in the low lvl 50s since last year. he doesn't seem to give much craps about playing at all. i think if our clan was on UNM CB and he reached stage 20 in all dungeons he would stop playing completely. it's predictable, but still fairly interesting to me.

rcw said:

L9753

I have not disproved my points about the lists. I proved that these lists can be very different. You have to remember you don't control which legendaries you get. My main accounts last legendaries are Rhazin (fused), Foli, Elder Skarg, and Brystophus. Two of them have universal opinions, Rhazin is very good and Bystophus is very bad. But what about Foli and Elder Skarg? What about the rest of my roster? Do I have another 4 hit a1 like Foli does? If I don't does that make him more viable? Leech seems good, do I have a leech character other than him? All of these things means that lists in general are only helpful, not definitive.

My original point was referring to your suggestion that after all the extreme effort required in fully upgrading a champion, you might discover only at that point that that champion sucks. I think our discussion since then has confirmed that with some research at the time you pull him, you can figure out to a large extent how useful a champion is for your specific account, and how much effort and resources he'd be worth. If you've done that research, there might be some minor difference between your expectations and the reality when the champion is fully upgraded, but not the huge disappointment you described. I certainly didn't mean that you should blindly follow any particular list.