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Who do I use in my Hydra team?

Who do I use in my Hydra team?

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Oct 17, 2023, 18:1510/17/23
06/16/22
203

Who do I use in my Hydra team?

This is for a Hard Hydra team, that will transition to Brutal somewhat soon. 

I cannot use: Lydia, Shamael, Mithrala, Michinaki, Ukko, Kantra (A team)

I'm trying to make a really strong second hydra team using the following champs:  

  • Islin: Mischief tank, Dec speed, Buffer, Backup provoke 
  • Pythion: Block debuffs, healer, res
  • Soulless: Provoker, dps
  • Whisper: Raw damage 
  • Sicia: Dec def, weaken, burner (synergize with Whisper)

Do I need block buffs with mischeif tank + burner? Do I need a hexer? Should I get another support or someone like Doompriest against Torment? 

I was playing with the idea of putting Corvis the Corrupter in here for his damage reduction passive + his buff extension / enemy buff reduction, but I don't know if that is worth it?

Who is the 6th champ that fills out this team the best? 


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Oct 17, 2023, 18:2310/17/23
Oct 17, 2023, 18:24(edited)
06/16/22
203

I just had another thought - 

What if I use Ragash over Whisper and that would give me Increase Speed + Strengthen, and maybe I could even try fitting in Corvis at the end to extend Increase Speed, Strengthen, Increase def, Block Debuffs and Ally protection 

Oct 17, 2023, 18:3710/17/23
06/25/20
6719

Okay, so let's see. First off, your team/questions:

  • Whisper is just way too one-dimensional to have value in Hydra. Single-target champs are almost never viable, and Whisper is no exception. Sure, she hits hard, but she only hits one thing.
  • Soulless, on your team, is not a DPS. Don't try to build him as such. Sure, he may contribute some damage, but for him to be your primary provoker, his main two stats need to be SPD and ACC.
  • If Islin is not fully booked on his A1, he cannot be a backup provoker. 35% x2 is just not reliable enough for any value, especially when he's only doing that once every three turns. He also can't be used as a Mischief tank, because he's placing two buffs on everyone else, and two on himself. Yes, technically the shield constitutes a third buff, but shield is an extremely unreliable way of guaranteeing he has more buffs.
  • No, you don't need a hexer. Sure, it's nice, but it's definitely not a requirement. However, yes, you do need a buff blocker. HPBurn is nice, but it's not enough to deal with all of the problems buffs bring - for example, Wrath being able to get ATK up and Block Debuffs is going to make him a nightmare to deal with.
  • Doompriest is fine as a way of dealing with Torment, but she doesn't bring much else, so if you're already stacked with support champs, there may not be room for her.

So, with all that said, here's what I'd recommend you use:

  • Provoke1: Visix (also brings SPD down)
  • Provoke2 + Damage1: Husk 
  • Speedup: Razelvarg
  • Block buffs: Wukong IF BOOKED, Uugo otherwise
  • Damage2: Artak
  • For the last spot, ideally we want an ACC down champ, so that we're not flooded with debuffs. If you have anyone good, use them. If not, Doompriest is an okay champ to fill this spot. If you really feel like you're dying too much, you can also use Pythion, but I really hate using people who have absolutely no value beyond support. 
Oct 17, 2023, 18:4310/17/23
06/16/22
203

Okay, so the theorycraft isn't quite working well for a dedicated Mischief tank - especially running Whisper with Islin (not sure what I was thinking). 

Take 2: 

  • Islin
  • Pythion
  • Warchief 
  • Ragash
  • Sicia 
  • Corvis?

What you guys think?

Oct 17, 2023, 18:4710/17/23
06/16/22
203
kramaswamy.kr

Okay, so let's see. First off, your team/questions:

  • Whisper is just way too one-dimensional to have value in Hydra. Single-target champs are almost never viable, and Whisper is no exception. Sure, she hits hard, but she only hits one thing.
  • Soulless, on your team, is not a DPS. Don't try to build him as such. Sure, he may contribute some damage, but for him to be your primary provoker, his main two stats need to be SPD and ACC.
  • If Islin is not fully booked on his A1, he cannot be a backup provoker. 35% x2 is just not reliable enough for any value, especially when he's only doing that once every three turns. He also can't be used as a Mischief tank, because he's placing two buffs on everyone else, and two on himself. Yes, technically the shield constitutes a third buff, but shield is an extremely unreliable way of guaranteeing he has more buffs.
  • No, you don't need a hexer. Sure, it's nice, but it's definitely not a requirement. However, yes, you do need a buff blocker. HPBurn is nice, but it's not enough to deal with all of the problems buffs bring - for example, Wrath being able to get ATK up and Block Debuffs is going to make him a nightmare to deal with.
  • Doompriest is fine as a way of dealing with Torment, but she doesn't bring much else, so if you're already stacked with support champs, there may not be room for her.

So, with all that said, here's what I'd recommend you use:

  • Provoke1: Visix (also brings SPD down)
  • Provoke2 + Damage1: Husk 
  • Speedup: Razelvarg
  • Block buffs: Wukong IF BOOKED, Uugo otherwise
  • Damage2: Artak
  • For the last spot, ideally we want an ACC down champ, so that we're not flooded with debuffs. If you have anyone good, use them. If not, Doompriest is an okay champ to fill this spot. If you really feel like you're dying too much, you can also use Pythion, but I really hate using people who have absolutely no value beyond support. 

Thanks for the comment Kram. I'm also realizing I cannot run Whisper with Islin if I'm trying to run a mischief tank. 

I had built my Soulless with high crit damage - I heard he was one of the top 3 Defense based nukers for arena - he's 227 speed, 220% cdmg, 300 acc. 

I was really trying to run a Mischief tank build honestly and would love some help trying to make one work. It seems like it would be nice to not have Mischief constantly stealing peoples buffs and dropping TM. 

I was considering putting in Ragash potentially for his Inc Speed + Strengthen, and since I was going to run Islin and Pythion, I thought it might be cool to run a buff extender? What you think?

Oct 17, 2023, 18:5610/17/23
06/16/22
203

and kram, the reason I was trying to fit some people in with support buffs, is whenever I run my B team it feels like they fall apart so easily - while my A team with Mithrala and Lydia have a lot of survivability with their buffs they're providing. I feel like I'm struggling to slot in a good survivable buffer / support. That's why I thought Islin + Pythion would be a great fit. 

Oct 17, 2023, 18:5710/17/23
06/25/20
6719

It's very difficult to get a Mischief tank to work properly. There are just far too many scenarios where it falls apart. I would not recommend that path.

That's why I'm suggesting you get an ACC down champ. It lets you avoid the worst of Mischief. Couple it with block buffs and you're gold.

Ragash is certainly not a bad option, but Razel is just better. Leech is a very valuable debuff.

Oct 17, 2023, 19:0310/17/23
06/16/22
203
kramaswamy.kr

It's very difficult to get a Mischief tank to work properly. There are just far too many scenarios where it falls apart. I would not recommend that path.

That's why I'm suggesting you get an ACC down champ. It lets you avoid the worst of Mischief. Couple it with block buffs and you're gold.

Ragash is certainly not a bad option, but Razel is just better. Leech is a very valuable debuff.

Isn't it "as easy" as having someone with Bloodshield ring + additional buffs where the rest of the team wouldn't have shields? 

Oct 17, 2023, 19:0510/17/23
06/25/20
6719

No, it really isn't. Shields are notoriously fragile things. Relying on your Mischief tank to have that shield up at the right time to absorb the attack is not reliable.

Ontop of that, buffs expire at different times, so there's no guarantee he's going to necessarily have more buffs than everyone else.

Even in a perfect world where you have *two* more buffs than everyone else, it's still not 100% consistent. Especially when it's so easy to instead just run Block Buffs, there's really no reason to try to force it.

Oct 17, 2023, 19:1410/17/23
12/19/19
6456

Uugo should 100% be used.

So should gnut.

Seems like u r theory crafting into a more difficult solution than necessary...

Play around with that crap on your C team 😀

Oct 17, 2023, 19:1610/17/23
06/16/22
203
Trips

Uugo should 100% be used.

So should gnut.

Seems like u r theory crafting into a more difficult solution than necessary...

Play around with that crap on your C team 😀

I mean, Gnut doesn't beat the hell outta hard it seems like...isn't he more for Brutal and above? And yeah I get Uugo is solid for sure, was just trying to originally find synergy in Whisper + Sicia

Oct 17, 2023, 19:1910/17/23
12/19/19
6456
kmanmott

I mean, Gnut doesn't beat the hell outta hard it seems like...isn't he more for Brutal and above? And yeah I get Uugo is solid for sure, was just trying to originally find synergy in Whisper + Sicia

I run gnut on C team (hard). I've never tried whisper so can't comment on her.  But gnut destroys ever head (unless 3 weak hits...)

Oct 17, 2023, 19:3010/17/23
06/16/22
203
kramaswamy.kr

Okay, so let's see. First off, your team/questions:

  • Whisper is just way too one-dimensional to have value in Hydra. Single-target champs are almost never viable, and Whisper is no exception. Sure, she hits hard, but she only hits one thing.
  • Soulless, on your team, is not a DPS. Don't try to build him as such. Sure, he may contribute some damage, but for him to be your primary provoker, his main two stats need to be SPD and ACC.
  • If Islin is not fully booked on his A1, he cannot be a backup provoker. 35% x2 is just not reliable enough for any value, especially when he's only doing that once every three turns. He also can't be used as a Mischief tank, because he's placing two buffs on everyone else, and two on himself. Yes, technically the shield constitutes a third buff, but shield is an extremely unreliable way of guaranteeing he has more buffs.
  • No, you don't need a hexer. Sure, it's nice, but it's definitely not a requirement. However, yes, you do need a buff blocker. HPBurn is nice, but it's not enough to deal with all of the problems buffs bring - for example, Wrath being able to get ATK up and Block Debuffs is going to make him a nightmare to deal with.
  • Doompriest is fine as a way of dealing with Torment, but she doesn't bring much else, so if you're already stacked with support champs, there may not be room for her.

So, with all that said, here's what I'd recommend you use:

  • Provoke1: Visix (also brings SPD down)
  • Provoke2 + Damage1: Husk 
  • Speedup: Razelvarg
  • Block buffs: Wukong IF BOOKED, Uugo otherwise
  • Damage2: Artak
  • For the last spot, ideally we want an ACC down champ, so that we're not flooded with debuffs. If you have anyone good, use them. If not, Doompriest is an okay champ to fill this spot. If you really feel like you're dying too much, you can also use Pythion, but I really hate using people who have absolutely no value beyond support. 

So going off your team above ^ I'd like to replace Visix for Islin tbh, and then I'm trying to manage my cross-performing champs (especially with books) - and I feel like I will likely use Ragash more than Razel both of them are unbooked. 

Do you think there's ANY value in the following team: 

  • Islin
  • Pythion
  • SWK (in case buffs go through)
  • Ragash (inc speed, strengthen)
  • Husk 
  • Artak  
Oct 17, 2023, 19:5710/17/23
06/25/20
6719

Islin *cannot* be a primary provoker. Stop trying to fit him into that role. Even if his A1 is fully booked, unless you plan on doing *nothing else* but using his A1, he will not be able to consistently keep provoke active. And if you're only using him for his A1, then you may as well use any number of other people, such as Seeker or Sandlashed.

As for Ragash vs Razel, they are not interchangeable. The big value-add that Razel brings is Leech. Without it, you're going to have a very hard time keeping your team alive. That said, with them being unbooked, I'm not sure if either are really viable - and Razel is a very key component of this team being viable to begin with. Unbooked, maybe you can make him work if you can put him into a Reflex set?

Oct 17, 2023, 22:3510/17/23
06/16/22
203
kramaswamy.kr

Islin *cannot* be a primary provoker. Stop trying to fit him into that role. Even if his A1 is fully booked, unless you plan on doing *nothing else* but using his A1, he will not be able to consistently keep provoke active. And if you're only using him for his A1, then you may as well use any number of other people, such as Seeker or Sandlashed.

As for Ragash vs Razel, they are not interchangeable. The big value-add that Razel brings is Leech. Without it, you're going to have a very hard time keeping your team alive. That said, with them being unbooked, I'm not sure if either are really viable - and Razel is a very key component of this team being viable to begin with. Unbooked, maybe you can make him work if you can put him into a Reflex set?

Just for clarity, I never thought he would be a primay provoker, that's why I had soulless in the first team. Islin was meant to provide defensive support and decrease speed.

And I understand about Ragash / Razel, my point was - if I could use Ragash in multiple other areas (like TTA, live arena, etc), I didn't want to "waste" books on Razel if he wasn't going to provide exceptional value. 

Oct 17, 2023, 22:3710/17/23
Oct 17, 2023, 22:38(edited)
06/16/22
203

Kram, for reference, I just got done with my Brutal team - and they do about 40M. 

My hard team that I just tried several times couldn't survive well at all (maybe getting to 10M). 

Uugo, Gnut, Soulless, Artak, Islin, Husk is just what I ended up using. I even tried switching out champs for Ursula the Mourner, I tried Ukko as well....

My champs die from Wrath, Poisons, etc. I don't have a Mithrala or a Shamael on my B team to help with buffs and the fears. 

Oct 17, 2023, 22:4210/17/23
Oct 17, 2023, 22:43(edited)
06/25/20
6719

Yes. Because, as I've said a few times, you're missing several important components - which my version of the team is providing you. You're missing Leech, so you don't heal back effectively, and you're missing ACC down, so you're not protected from those nasty debuffs.

Just try out my suggested team. Use Ukko as your 6th, for this test case, since he brings ACC down.

*EDIT - and, needless to say, for Leech to work as a healing method, you need to be running WM / GS.

Oct 17, 2023, 22:4710/17/23
06/16/22
203
kramaswamy.kr

Yes. Because, as I've said a few times, you're missing several important components - which my version of the team is providing you. You're missing Leech, so you don't heal back effectively, and you're missing ACC down, so you're not protected from those nasty debuffs.

Just try out my suggested team. Use Ukko as your 6th, for this test case, since he brings ACC down.

*EDIT - and, needless to say, for Leech to work as a healing method, you need to be running WM / GS.

So based on the above 

  • Islin (replaced your Visix)
  • Husk
  • Razelvarg
  • Uugo
  • Ukko (does he really work that well here? Razel doing inc speed and Uugo doing block buffs) > do I put someone like Gnut in?) 
  • Artak

So which buffs in particular will acc down work on btw? like the poisons I assume? 

Oct 17, 2023, 22:4910/17/23
Oct 17, 2023, 22:50(edited)
06/16/22
203
kramaswamy.kr

Yes. Because, as I've said a few times, you're missing several important components - which my version of the team is providing you. You're missing Leech, so you don't heal back effectively, and you're missing ACC down, so you're not protected from those nasty debuffs.

Just try out my suggested team. Use Ukko as your 6th, for this test case, since he brings ACC down.

*EDIT - and, needless to say, for Leech to work as a healing method, you need to be running WM / GS.

And Kram, I apologize, I'm still wrapping my head around this. 

My A team is Mithrala, Lydia, Michinaki, Shamael, Kantra (and I used SWK today). 

All of whom don't have any leech. Kantra will throw out non-consistent decrease accuracy, decrease speed and others obviously (and I love her), but I didn't have someone dedicated for those roles. 

I was just thinking in general my A team is very good at surviving for the most part. 

Oct 17, 2023, 22:5210/17/23
Oct 17, 2023, 22:52(edited)
06/25/20
6719

Your A-team has Mithrala and Lydia to provide a ton of defensive ability. She's a bit of a special case in what she brings. You also have Lydia + Sham to deal with Torment, and Kantra for all the debuffs she brings.

As for the team I'm suggesting - stop trying to bring Islin onto the team. You want Visix. As I keep trying to tell you, Islin cannot be your primary provoker.

Ukko is on the team for ACC down. Everything else is just bonus.